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A Woman’s Story

raganwald.posterous.com

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Re: A Woman’s Story

#181

Post by moldbug »

Tichy wrote: post #163
moldbug wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be too optimistic: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/us/21latina.html As I said, the confounding factors exist, but they seem relatively minor. Attempting to effectively homogenize the diverse human gene pool through education is anything but a new effort. If it was possible to educate the Mbuti pygmies of the Congo into the cognitive equivalent of Great Neck Jews, don't you think someone would have tried this…

"If it was possible to educate the Mbuti pygmies of the Congo into the cognitive equivalent of Great Neck Jews, don't you think someone would have tried this already" Who would try that? The benign, wise rulers of the Congo?

You mean the UN? Isn't the UN benign and wise? Or do you mean this? Time Magazine, 1955:

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,866343,00.html

In the Belgian Congo last week massed tom-tom drummers practiced a welcome tattoo. Prosperous Negro shopkeepers climbed up wooden ladders and draped the Congolese flag (a golden star on a blue field) from lampposts and triumphal arches set up along Boulevard Albert I, the spanking concrete highway that bisects the capital city of Leopoldville. In far-off mission churches, encircled by the rain forest that stretches through Belgian territory from the Atlantic to the Mountains of the Moon, choirs of Bantu children rehearsed the Te Deum. African regiments drilled, jazz bands blared in...

If you have a Time subscription (yeah right), you can read the whole thing on line. Otherwise, suffice it to say that (a) the memory hole is a lot deeper than you think, and (b) it's physically possible to teach Bantu children (and perhaps even pygmies) the Te Deum. Not clear that it's a safe and effective method for turning them into the King Ad-Rock, however.

The most interesting, and certainly the most effective, attempt to convert a Stone Age population directly to a civilized lifestyle wasn't even in the 20th century. Or the 19th. Consider the Reductions of Paraguay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_Reductions

Re: A Woman’s Story

#182

Post by moldbug »

corin_ wrote: post #177
moldbug wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak I can even anticipate your response: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

> this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule I don't need to do that.. I just need to point out that by picking an example of what one or more communists did or said doesn't make their actions a part of communism. The only logical fallacy here is yours - I could equally point at some American murderers…

I don't need to do that.. I just need to point out that by picking an example of what one or more communists did or said doesn't make their actions a part of communism.

Priceless! Where's my MasterCard?

For the record, Paul Graham kills hundreds of thousands of persons of color every year. All these capitalists are the same. Fred Wilson is walking down the street, sees some poor black homeless person he doesn't like... blam! He needs an extended magazine just to walk to work. And sells the organs, too - where do you think all this money comes from? But you never hear about it - our capitalist society is just so callous, you know, to the plight of the underprivileged.

I know there are communists out there who can spell "fascist." I just wish one of them would take my bait...

Re: A Woman’s Story

#183

Post by moldbug »

barrkel wrote: post #110
tomjen3 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you say they are not? Granted before some, perhaps most, would be below their level but it seems rather impossible to assume that nobody has now been moved artificially higher than they should have.

The claim isn't that nobody is above their "level"; it's that black people are "likely" to be - and I read that as "most" are - above their "level". At what "level" are people with good connections, powerful parents etc.? Is affirmative action more effective in advancing people than pulling strings and calling in favours? Isn't this mechanism - the social status quo - what affirmative action is designed to change? Wh…

It's well known, of course, that two wrongs make a right. It's also well known that all white people have rich, powerful parents. (Wasn't that a Dave Chappelle skit?)

Re: A Woman’s Story

#184

Post by gadders »

The comments seem to have degenerated into a debate about the merits of IQ tests, but I wanted to say thank you for a beautiful and uplifting story.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#185

Post by johnchristopher »

Tichy wrote: post #74
kahirsch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA). This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. "Disparate impact" merely means that blacks…

"They haven't been shown to be biased" When I think about that question, I think about questions that would be harder for me (white caucasian) than somebody from another "race" or culture. That is easy: for example imagine selecting some kind of image puzzles involving kanjii symbols, or telling apart chinese faces. They are just images, right, so no bias? But it will be much more easy to tell them apart for somebody…

What I remember of my first-grad year in psychology (in Europe and I changed orientation after that year), anthropology course: The picture shows a black person in a room and you're looking at it in such a way that you don't see any perspective lines (3D construct), only a flat surface for the Wall. A square is drawn on the wall and filled with a scenery. "White/Occidental" people think the square represents a window and "Black/African" people think it's a painting or a hanging frame. Because, when the study was conducted, in that particular part of africa where it was conducted, people didn't have windows in their house.

So, that's another example of that cultural bias but it demonstrates we don't need something "complex" to make it stand out.

PS:Sorry for this atrocious use of english, it has been a long day.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#186

Post by rmc »

moldbug wrote: post #84
rmc wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This the old trope that now-a-days the pendulum has swung too far and women, blacks etc. are now in a privileged position compared to white, straight, anglo men. Nonsense. And spreads the idea that all black people shouldn't be where they are in the company and are all tricksters who are rubbish at their job.

Think like a smart person - you obviously are one. If you wanted to confirm or deny this "old trope," how would you do so? What evidence would prove or disprove it? If you wanted to identify such privileges, what would they look like? What about counter-privileges which offset them? A fun thought-experiment, for instance, is imagining that "women, blacks etc." could sell whatever privileges they have to groups that I…

If you wanted to identify such privileges, what would they look like?

People have done this already, this is what they look like:

White Privilege Checklist: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

Male Privilege Checklist: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

Heterosexual Privilege Checklist: http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~hyrax/personal/files/student_res/...

Cis gender privilege checklist: http://takesupspace.wordpress.com/cis-privilege-checklist/

Re: A Woman’s Story

#187

Post by logjam »

philwelch wrote: post #132
kahirsch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA). This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. "Disparate impact" merely means that blacks…

> They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. Now, now now. You've forgotten Political Logic. Political Premise: There are no significant differences in intelligence between blacks and whites. Empirical Premise: Blacks score lower than whites on IQ tests. Conclusion: IQ tests are biased. The first ru…

Oh, look: an appeal-to-emotion on "political logic" consisting of ignoring eight hundred years of the racist "political premise" (extending to present day) that whites are superior to blacks, followed by straw man, followed by false premise.

A tutorial in basic logic is more in order.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#188

Post by logjam »

moldbug wrote: post #179
ktizo wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is the operators that are standing by. Folk in white coats with reassuring expressions maybe.

Alas, you could be all too right! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_i...

Alas, he is all too right. Attempts to rationalize racism, whether or not with the rather silly faux erudition we see here, may be soon classified as a mental illness:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_9_32/ai_n291...

No word on treatment options.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#189

Post by ktizo »

logjam wrote: post #188
moldbug wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas, you could be all too right! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_i...

Alas, he is all too right. Attempts to rationalize racism, whether or not with the rather silly faux erudition we see here, may be soon classified as a mental illness: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_9_32/ai_n291... No word on treatment options.

I wasn't referring to the opinions, I was referring to the logic.

As for implying that he is right in general because you have read an article that says that some people would like to be able, in the future, to look at classifying some racist behaviour among a very narrow class of people who already are displaying symptoms of schizophrenia, as being a part of their symptoms. Well, you seem as bonkers as he is.

From your referenced article:

"At present, the state of research is inadequate to suggest one course or another"

Re: A Woman’s Story

#190

Post by smsm42 »

adrianhoward wrote: post #172
smsm42 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most IQ tests - at least ones I've seen - are highly trainable, both in general (you learn to think certain way) and in particular (you learn to solve specific type of test). So while tests aren't race-dependent and there's no reason to think they might be, they definitely can be culture-dependent and income (or, more precisely, education level and type) dependent. So while the test is an objective measure, it in an…

I've taken a bunch of IQ tests over the years with some wildly different scores. I score pretty well. I'm also very sceptical of their general utility. The between the lowest and highest score I ever received on an IQ test is 45 points. That really doesn't sound like an objective measure of anything much (The lowest was when I was stressed, running on no sleep, the test was sprung on me with no warning and had US cul…

Such tests can play the same role as the famous FizzBuzz test - to quickly filter out obviously unfit candidates without spending much resources. But this is usually fit for very big companies that hire a lot of people, sometimes without proven experience, and have somehow to reduce costs of that.
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