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How China's “debt traps” work

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Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#191

Post by throwaway29812 »

slantedview wrote: post #151
throwaway29812 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aid for pro-democracy or pro-US policies is standard practice, of course. But has the US threatened countries if they don't vote with them at the UN, or seized their land and/or assets for non payment of debt?

Of course. Even a tertiary google search will get you details, if you care to find and read them.

Influencing other countries, which again everyone does. Have they ever specifically threatened to, say withhold vaccines if a vote doesn't go their way?

https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-china-europe-ukrai...

Have they ever put countries into debt then stolen land based on that debt?

Your example btw was about raising arms for a third party conflict, not for something that directly benefits the US. Which weakens your argument.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#192

Post by green-eclipse »

l3mure wrote: post #171
ruthie_cohen wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an incredibly naive take on an issue that is wide spread in China to the point of it being almost the norm. Confucianism does not lend itself well to crucial infrastructure , you know, things you don’t want to collapse. https://www.chinaexpatsociety.com/culture/the-chabuduo-minds... It’s an entire mindset.

Fascinating. Within the past 2 years, the US suffered 98 people killed in a condo collapse, and a fairly serious (though thankfully non-fatal) bridge collapse. There's also the especially egregious case a bit further back of the New Orleans levies failing during Katrina. Must have been undercover Confucians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1076343656/pittsbur…

The reason it was such enormous news was due to how very rare this situation is in the US. Apartment buildings don't collapse on a weekly basis.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#193

Post by green-eclipse »

csense wrote: post #161

If you're a small poor country and you borrow money from China to build infra on your territory, what happens if you simply... don't pay back the loan after the infra is built?

If you read the article it answers this very question, with examples.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#194

Post by phanimahesh »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #96
26fingies wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i was gonna say - a lot of places you can put a bunch of cash down for an apartment that only exists as a picture on a sign somewhere.

In the UK you can buy "off plan", but you only pay a deposit, and that goes into escrow until you get the keys, the developer can't touch the money until then I assume it's similar in most countries

Not quite. In india properties get loans during early construction as well, and the amounts are disbursed in tranches based on completion progress. Timelines must be filed publicly with RERA and a non RERA approved property is a red flag. No escrows as such for loans taken by buyer.

What I call loan is a similar arrangement to mortgage. Buyer pledges property as collateral, pays about 20% out of pocket, rest is a debt to be paid. Defaults result in loss of ownership of property. The agreements are tripartite. Builder gets paid from the loan taken out by buyer in tranches and builder reputation matters along with market value assessment and buyer's credit profile for obtaining a loan.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#195

Post by dang »

throwaway2990 wrote: post #178
ccding wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. In China, buyers have to pay the down payment and mortgage before the apartment is built, but for some reason if the builder left the apartment half built, buyers do get their money back from the bank.

No. You don’t pay off a mortgage before the home is built lol. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. You have to pay in full to the developer. By taking out a loan which consists of a downpayment. The developer now has 100% of the money. And the buyer has nothing but debt. The developers are either never breaking ground or never completing the building. Using the money to buy more land and sell more homes. When t…

Can you please make your substantive points without breaking the site guidelines? You broke more than one of them with this post.

I'm sure you have a good point about mortgages and developers and banks, but it's more important not to set the forum on fire, and that is what the site guidelines exist to avoid.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#196

Post by oceanplexian »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #93
oceanplexian wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there are some beneficial things that the government does. Like roads, police, fire, regulatory agencies; all the usual things that are cited as "We live in a society" line items. But those things are a tiny minority of government spending. The VAST majority of the federal budget goes to entitlements. Another massive chunk goes to paying interest on debt because we spent money we didn't have on entitlements. An…

I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but that's how you get people (mostly children and old people) starving in the streets. That's what those entitlements pay for. Maybe you think that's not worthwhile, fair enough. Unfortunately for you, many of your fellow citizens and taxpayers disagree.

Or, perhaps the 60% of American Households that give to charity would be able to take their increased pay, and more efficiently get help to people that need it than a series of large, fraud-ridden government programs.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#197

Post by mikrotikker »

l3mure wrote: post #157
nonethewiser wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then where are the videos of western tofu dreg? China has a literal army of propaganda posters. Am I supposed to believe such problems exist and it never occurred to them to push it?

> In July 2021, another occurrence of tofu-dreg construction happened in Zhengzhou in Henan province where the entire city was put at a standstill due to torrential rains and flooding. The city was referred to as a “sponge city” because of how vulnerable the drainage system was. Some argued that the city was not to blame since they were experiencing unprecedented rain levels, but there was evidence later found pointi…

At least in new York there are drains under the grates. In China there are grates but no actual drains. Someone still got paid for building drains.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#198

Post by mikrotikker »

csomar wrote: post #48

I've recently rode through a Belt&Road project: The Lao high-speed train. In my opinion, it shows the complete failure of the Chinese government. The high-speed train is a reasonably great train that goes through dozens (hundreds?) of mountains and rivers (through tunnels and bridges). It does that while enabling you to work from the comfort of your chair. And while it's not high-speed (as in 300Km/h), it is reasonab…

Jeez riding high speed rail in China must be gambling with your life given the prevalence of tofu dreg.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#199

Post by throwaway2990 »

dang wrote: post #195
throwaway2990 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You don’t pay off a mortgage before the home is built lol. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. You have to pay in full to the developer. By taking out a loan which consists of a downpayment. The developer now has 100% of the money. And the buyer has nothing but debt. The developers are either never breaking ground or never completing the building. Using the money to buy more land and sell more homes. When t…

Can you please make your substantive points without breaking the site guidelines? You broke more than one of them with this post. I'm sure you have a good point about mortgages and developers and banks, but it's more important not to set the forum on fire, and that is what the site guidelines exist to avoid. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit…

Nice one. Flag it and hide it so you can protect the guy defending the CCP. Nice to know HN is a propaganda forum.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#200

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway2990 wrote: post #199
dang wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please make your substantive points without breaking the site guidelines? You broke more than one of them with this post. I'm sure you have a good point about mortgages and developers and banks, but it's more important not to set the forum on fire, and that is what the site guidelines exist to avoid. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit…

Nice one. Flag it and hide it so you can protect the guy defending the CCP. Nice to know HN is a propaganda forum.

[deleted]
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