I am very real • Hacker News Board

Re: I am very real

#31

Post by reason » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:39 PM UTC

This submission could not have come at a better time.

Over the past couple of weeks, I've been contemplating making a submission urging HNers to be human, and to recognize that everyone else who comments here is also a human, and that stories about startups and notable figures are essentially about humans - humans who all have families, friends, ambitions, desires, flaws, struggles.

All too often I see people here forgetting about that. I myself have been guilty of it in the past too. But there's something about the negativity and criticism here that grates on me more than on other sites. I think people here tend to assume that being an engineer/programmer means that not only must they treat their code with utmost logic and rationality, but that they should look at life in the same manner - that to be an empathetic and emotional person puts them at some sort of optimizational and productive disadvantage. All that leads to is cold, harsh discourse and criticism without considering the more abstract, but very real ways humans feel and behave. It's sad to see.

So, I guess this is that submission. Next time you write a comment, ask yourself if you're being human and remind yourself that whatever you're about to say is directed at another human.

Stop being robots, and just act human.

Re: I am very real

#32

Post by LesZedCB » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:41 PM UTC

essayist wrote: post #22

sosuke wrote: post #3

While not nearly as important, the idea that authors are real makes me immediately relate to my own experience that customers don't seem to understand that software is made by real people too. People with feelings, who are fallible. Several comments on blogs or reviews on the app store show to me that people don't feel they are being insulting or rude if they aren't facing the person they criticize. The more I wrote…

David Foster Wallace's take on this was that my own reality is so overpoweringly real, that it's hard to see you (or anyone else) as real. everything in my own immediate experience supports my deep belief that I am the absolute centre of the universe, the realest, most vivid and important person in existence. We rarely talk about this sort of natural, basic self-centredness, because it's so socially repulsive.... Oth…

It is amazing how much that kind of thinking can help. Especially since I have tried to adopt considering the persons situation before getting mad at them, when I see myself or others getting mad at somebody and accusing them of something, when they are in the (car|line) (next to|behind) us.., it makes me ashamed to realize 1) I'm being just as much, if not more of a jerk, and 2) maybe they aren't actually being a jerk at all...

Re: I am very real

#33

Post by renegadedev » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

WiseWeasel wrote: post #29

renegadedev wrote: post #23

Burning a book (good or bad) is the lowest form of expression humans can stoop to. If people understood the fact that a book is simply a personification of ideas, and ideas good or bad, cannot perish in a fire, the will realize the folly of engaging in a futile act like burning a book. One of the inevitable consequences of the digital revolution will be that, there will come a time, when a controversial book will be…

I'm not so sure that this type of book-burning is tied to the physicality of books, rather than a symbol of rejection. Certainly, there have been instances throughout history, such as when the Nazi government or the Catholic Church have carried out organized purges of particular written works on a societal level, where the supply of the work has been materially impacted to the point that it is difficult to obtain. Bu…

Good point. I was not necessarily referring to the physicality of books but the notion these book-burners subscribe to, that if they symbolically burn a book, the idea will perish. Your point of the Nazis burning the books out of supply only illustrates the point that to burn a book in the hope that the idea will perish, did not necessarily work.

Re: I am very real

#34

Post by peacemaker » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #27

JangoSteve wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as a developer of software, I've at times found myself forgetting that software is written by real people. Just a few months ago, I bought an app from the Mac App Store. I became disenamored with the app due to a glaring fault. I regained consciousness about halfway through writing my negative review on the App Store (that'll be my excuse for getting as far as I did), with the thought, "Why don't I first email t…

I once had a cow-orker who thought software came from "the internet" - he literally could not fathom writing a program himself.

I can't understand this logic. Did he think the internet was some magical place that created all his games and apps and so on? How did he think about manufacturing then? Or artwork? Or movies? How does someone get so far in such a technology based society without knowing that there are people behind all these things?

Re: I am very real

#35

Post by partisan » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:43 PM UTC

essayist wrote: post #22

sosuke wrote: post #3

While not nearly as important, the idea that authors are real makes me immediately relate to my own experience that customers don't seem to understand that software is made by real people too. People with feelings, who are fallible. Several comments on blogs or reviews on the app store show to me that people don't feel they are being insulting or rude if they aren't facing the person they criticize. The more I wrote…

David Foster Wallace's take on this was that my own reality is so overpoweringly real, that it's hard to see you (or anyone else) as real. everything in my own immediate experience supports my deep belief that I am the absolute centre of the universe, the realest, most vivid and important person in existence. We rarely talk about this sort of natural, basic self-centredness, because it's so socially repulsive.... Oth…

While I agree with your suggestion for dealing with Customer Service, I don't agree with Mr. Wallace's proposed remedy. Why should I have to imagine someone in a piteous position in order to be able to empathize with them? Can't we just accept people for who they are and empathize because they are just like us?

Re: I am very real

#36

Post by rusua » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:43 PM UTC

sheepthief wrote: post #13

dasht wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an aside: thank you for the great web site.

Thank you. It's a pleasure.

Your site always makes my day. Keep the good work!

Re: I am very real

#37

Post by zackham » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:44 PM UTC

sosuke wrote: post #3

While not nearly as important, the idea that authors are real makes me immediately relate to my own experience that customers don't seem to understand that software is made by real people too. People with feelings, who are fallible. Several comments on blogs or reviews on the app store show to me that people don't feel they are being insulting or rude if they aren't facing the person they criticize. The more I wrote…

The best lesson I have learned after dealing with lots of frustrated users is that their initial contact is more like how you'd interact with an inanimate object than a human. If someone yells at me personally, it seems a bit unreasonable... but if someone gets frustrated using my product and "virtually" throws it on the ground and stomps on it, that is a feeling I can understand. Once they have that off their chest, and I respond in a reasonable way, the follow-up conversation is always more respectful and humane. Just need to figure out how to read that initial communication and understand that they aren't mad at you, they are just frustrated with your product. Also, don't take it so personally that you miss out on the valuable bug report (or ux critique) that is so often embedded in these messages.

Re: I am very real

#38

Post by LesZedCB » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:44 PM UTC

renegadedev wrote: post #23

Burning a book (good or bad) is the lowest form of expression humans can stoop to. If people understood the fact that a book is simply a personification of ideas, and ideas good or bad, cannot perish in a fire, the will realize the folly of engaging in a futile act like burning a book. One of the inevitable consequences of the digital revolution will be that, there will come a time, when a controversial book will be…

I'm sorry, I just had to share this: http://xkcd.com/750/

Re: I am very real

#39

Post by peter_l_downs » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:45 PM UTC

reason wrote: post #31

This submission could not have come at a better time. Over the past couple of weeks, I've been contemplating making a submission urging HNers to be human , and to recognize that everyone else who comments here is also a human , and that stories about startups and notable figures are essentially about humans - humans who all have families, friends, ambitions, desires, flaws, struggles. All too often I see people here…

Elaborate on this; write a blog post. I'll gladly give you another up vote.

> But there's something about the negativity and criticism here that grates on me more than on other sites.

Honestly, I have had the opposite experience. Everyone here seems focused on getting work done and making great things, yes, but the little criticism that I do see is always well thought-out and explained. Instead of it 'grating' on me, I value it highly, because it's almost all of excellent quality.

> I think people here tend to assume that [...] to be an empathetic and emotional person puts them at some sort of optimizational and productive disadvantage.

Who? That's a foolish viewpoint that I cannot believe anyone here would hold. I haven't run across anyone who seems like they subscribe to this belief — have you?

Re: I am very real

#40

Post by LockeWatts » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 4:50 PM UTC

peacemaker wrote: post #34

gaius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had a cow-orker who thought software came from "the internet" - he literally could not fathom writing a program himself.

I can't understand this logic. Did he think the internet was some magical place that created all his games and apps and so on? How did he think about manufacturing then? Or artwork? Or movies? How does someone get so far in such a technology based society without knowing that there are people behind all these things?

Has he ever seen anyone make a movie, or a program? Some people really are bad at looking at abstract layers.