Earlier quoted context omitted.
We are so incredibly far from highly fragmented I don’t think that’s even worth thinking about at this stage
If you don't think about it, could create a weird set of local/product/etc. monopoly like things instead. Not thinking about isn't an option because it ignores the incentives if you force limit sizes.
The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
301–310 of 653 posts
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#302There's a bit of an odd remedy issue with this lawsuit. The harm being asserted by the FTC is that Amazon charges more fees than competitors but requires that sellers not charge more on Amazon than on competing sites. Originally Amazon allegedly accomplished this with a Most Favored Nation clause, and today Amazon will kick you out of the "buy box" promotional space if they detect you offering lower prices elsewhere.
First, a breakup doesn't cure this harm. You could go all the way to the extreme of splitting Amazon's third-party marketplace into its own company and yet that company could still charge higher fees than competitors and condition the buy box space on sellers not offering lower prices elsewhere.
Second, no injunction makes sense either. Is a court going to force Amazon to advertise a price in the buy box that Amazon knows is not the lowest price available on the market? That's an absurdly anti-consumer thing for a court to order (and so a court would likely not order it).
So what cures the alleged harm?
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you made your position clear enough already in the other threads.
Oooh, what did they say?
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#304What magic does apple work behind the scenes to avoid scrutiny? If we're talking about hidden taxes, surely the only app store allowed on 50% of smart phones taking 30% is a hidden tax? And if not that, surely visa/mastercard's fee is it's own hidden tax?
Yes, the FTC should look at Apple. But Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook would all be higher on my "FTC TECH TODO" list than Apple so I'm not sure why you focused on Apple in this "whatabout"?
Interestingly one of the possible starting point for this investigation was a complain from Amazon to the FTC.
I am eagerly awaiting the acrobatic justifications Amazon lawyers will have to find out to justify that their MFN clause is perfectly legal without contradicting their own claims of the 2013 case...
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you don't think about it, could create a weird set of local/product/etc. monopoly like things instead. Not thinking about isn't an option because it ignores the incentives if you force limit sizes.
Yes definitely agree a hard limit on sizes doesn’t make sense, but I just think it’s not going to be a problem any time soon with the current state of affairs in the US economy.
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#306An excerpt from: https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/25/greedflation/ Amazon binds its sellers over to something called Most Favored Nation status. That means that sellers can't offer their goods more cheaply than they do on Amazon – even if it costs them (lots) less to sell in Target or direct from their websites. This means that every time a seller adds a dollar to their Amazon sale price, they have to add a dollar to…
I feel like I’ve purchased direct from business at much cheaper rates than what were listed on Amazon. Is it possible the loophole here is to provide discount codes at checkout for “20% off” on website only, and now magically it’s cheaper than Amazon?
Shell companies are for more than just tax evasion!
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
The first one seems obtuse. If here were some 1960s-style comglomerate that sold shower curtains and offered professional bowling ball waxing, with a 95% monopoly in both... Why would splitting it out into two monopolies improve anything? Even if there are some unknown, misunderstood synergies between the two businesses, will they not just collude in that way that bridge players do, without any overt actions that cou…
>will they not just collude in that way that bridge players do, without any overt actions that could be punished? Currently, they get that for free by virtue of being the same company. If they were separate companies, it would require actual collusion and may, depending on the specifics, be illegal. It's also be less likely to occur since they'd need some motivation to do so. Why would the shower curtain company even…
I don't play bridge, never learned. A game consists of two teams of two players each. My vague understanding is that you might win if a partner gets ahold of a card that you discard, but that you can't know what card that is without saying so (cheating).
Good players can tell what cards their partners might need, and discard anyway. This isn't cheating, it's just good play.
In a court of law, the former is definitely some violation of antitrust law. But the latter is just good business. And even if it weren't, no overt acts have been committed that could lead to successful prosecutorial outcomes.
Philosophically, it may still be collusion. Good luck doing anything about it.
> It's also be less likely to occur since they'd need some motivation to do so.
Game theory supplies that just fine. If I have a monopoly in A, and you a monopoly in B, then I might just protect your monopoly in B without you requesting that, without you giving me instructions.
And from that point on, if you see a place where you can hurt or help me, you might choose to help without me requesting it or asking. Because if my monopoly on A is hurt... I can no longer afford to help you without you asking. Supporting me is a no-brainer. At least if the other party isn't a complete imbecile, they can see it. While there's no accounting for stupidity (second most powerful force after compound interest), we can already assume that the leadership of these companies is non-stupid just because of the success they've already achieved.
> Why would the shower curtain company even attempt to collude with the bowling ball waxing business?
When they break these companies up, they don't fire 100% of management and rehire. Most of them know each other. Most are friendly with each other, if not friends. Sure, employee attrition will eventually break those bonds ten years down the road. But they already know how each other thinks.
Silent collusion, without so much as a wink or a nod, is definitely within the realm of possibility. The previously existing social connections are present. Their goals were largely aligned before, and nothing has occurred to de-align them. Mutual success may be easier than individual success. A sort of "corporate altruism" can emerge.
Evolution does this shit all the time with symbiotes. It's not like their colluding to co-evolve with each other. You won't find conspiracy evidence in the fossil record that they just started helping each other, it only proved to be a better strategy than individuality, and so they went with it.
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#308An excerpt from: https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/25/greedflation/ Amazon binds its sellers over to something called Most Favored Nation status. That means that sellers can't offer their goods more cheaply than they do on Amazon – even if it costs them (lots) less to sell in Target or direct from their websites. This means that every time a seller adds a dollar to their Amazon sale price, they have to add a dollar to…
DC AG Karl Racine filed a lawsuit over this in May 2021. The judge threw it out, supposedly for lack of evidence that it actually raised prices: https://www.jurist.org/news/2022/03/dc-trial-court-dismisses... I can't find details; it's unclear what the evidence or lack thereof was.
CA AG Rob Bonta filed another lawsuit over the same issue in Sept 2022. Some juicy quotes here (although only one side of the story): https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bont... The CA lawsuit is set to go to trial in 2026.
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#309An excerpt from: https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/25/greedflation/ Amazon binds its sellers over to something called Most Favored Nation status. That means that sellers can't offer their goods more cheaply than they do on Amazon – even if it costs them (lots) less to sell in Target or direct from their websites. This means that every time a seller adds a dollar to their Amazon sale price, they have to add a dollar to…
The FTC alleges that this simply reconstitutes the MFA since most sales on Amazon take place from the buy box. Amazon responds that it is within its rights to not promote uncompetitive offers that make its site look bad for not having the lowest available price.
Re: The FTC sues to break up Amazon over an economy-wide “hidden tax”
#310An excerpt from: https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/25/greedflation/ Amazon binds its sellers over to something called Most Favored Nation status. That means that sellers can't offer their goods more cheaply than they do on Amazon – even if it costs them (lots) less to sell in Target or direct from their websites. This means that every time a seller adds a dollar to their Amazon sale price, they have to add a dollar to…
Isn’t this very common among all resellers? For example if you own a hotel and want other websites to sell your availability they will only list you if you don’t list the same availability for less money. They do this in part because people use the service to search for hotels and even they find one they want they go to other places to see if it’s cheaper.
They're not saying amazon committed a crime by doing this, they're saying that it's evidence of amazon abusing their market position to create a monopoly. "most favoured nation" status is legal, creating a monopoly isn't.