D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect • Hacker News Board

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#371

Post by makeitdouble » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

sambazi wrote: post #182

makeitdouble wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. But most businesses do. The main issue is there: why should a business be forced by law to accept cash if they absolutely need electricty and cables to work as a business ? It's one step below forcing them to accept hand written checks. Those are also extremely resilient, you just need a pen and paper. But god no I wouldn't want to deal with…

cashless has a lot of negative externalities hence a business should have a _very good_ reason to not accept the legal tender.

What if I told you that outside of the US we're seeing tax offices progressively refusing cash payments and/or putting a penalty with a maximum accepted amount for people who still try to bring cash ?

Forcing all businesses to follow a model that is already getting phased out doesn't make sense.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#372

Post by GuB-42 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #254

nonrandomstring wrote: post #162

Almost every comment is about politics, choice, privacy, rights, markets and percentages. There's a completely different take; Civic resilience From an operational and strategic security POV, cash is a vastly superior technology. It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. Therefore cash in circulation acts as a buffer that provides economic stability and continuity of operations. Also,…

>From an operational and strategic security POV, cash is a vastly superior technology. It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. If the power goes out, I can't get any cash. I don't keep any meaningful amount cash on hand and neither does anyone I know, including my elderly relatives. Most of the stores I shop at won't actually be able to sell me anything, because none of the products…

> I don't keep any meaningful amount cash on hand and neither does anyone I know.

That's your choice, not a problem with cash

> Most of the stores I shop at won't actually be able to sell me anything

But many other stores will

> ... by the end of the day

Often, it is all that is needed

Not all outages are apocalypse scenarios. Sometimes, it is just about finding something to eat for the night, the kind of small things that add up in an emergency situation.

Take the 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami for instance, it caused big problems like flooded cities and the Fukushima disaster, but it also caused small problems for millions of people, power outages, stopped trains, etc... These people had to eat, sleep,... while most of the infrastructure was down, it got better the next day, but in the meantime, it is good not to have to worry about millions of people being able to buy their meal when thousands are in need for immediate assistance.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#373

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:34 PM UTC

blackshaw wrote: post #257

makeitdouble wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. But most businesses do. The main issue is there: why should a business be forced by law to accept cash if they absolutely need electricty and cables to work as a business ? It's one step below forcing them to accept hand written checks. Those are also extremely resilient, you just need a pen and paper. But god no I wouldn't want to deal with…

Let's think about who wouldn't be fine in a cashless economy: * Elderly people who struggle with technology. * People fleeing coercive situations like domestic abuse where their abuser controls their finances. * People with mental disabilities, for whom cash might be the only thing they know how to use. * Homeless people, who might literally rely on cash to survive. * Poorer people who prefer cash because it helps th…

> So basically, I think that asking "why should a business be forced by law to accept cash?" is like asking "why should a business be forced by law to provide wheelchair ramps and elevators?" If you don't think the answer is obvious, then you need to check your privilege.

If you don’t think the answer is the federal government should be providing the necessary infrastructure, then you want retail business operators to pay for fixing the problems taxpayers should be paying to fix.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#374

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:38 PM UTC

bradfa wrote: post #231

runnr_az wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in PHX, I’ve been seeing a lot of businesses with a 2-3% surcharge for cards

Same here in upstate NY. Mostly smaller businesses like pizza joints and such but pretty much every gas station has been doing this for years. The only cashless place I’ve seen around here is the major sports stadiums, everyone else seems to greatly prefer cash over cards.

That is for tax evasion purposes.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#375

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:41 PM UTC

aembleton wrote: post #250

sambazi wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just rebrand "not giving change" as "mandatory tipping" and it's even a pro-worker move! rounding-up to avoid handling change is the norm when paying cash in "tippable" situations like at restaurants or farmer's markets.

Is it normal in the US to tip at a farmers market?

No.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#376

Post by 6510 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:42 PM UTC

plagiarist wrote: post #339

FredFS456 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case you would often need gold, not cash.

By the time the infrastructure and economy is fucked enough by disaster that currency is worthless, the gold will be worthless as well.

I always tell rich people that ill buy everything they own for this can of beans here. You might not want to buy it now but eventually you will take the deal.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#377

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:43 PM UTC

constantly wrote: post #364

sbuttgereit wrote: post #340

OK... naturally this is a political discussion; but I find the politics of this interesting and maybe even amusing. I don't live in DC and at don't really have a horse in this race but I sense a contradiction. I think many would consider Washington D.C. to be governed solidly by American progressives. While the rationale for this law fits solidly within their views on egalitarianism, I wonder why no one is discussing…

What about electronic negative environmental externalities? It requires a while network of internet (backbones, cables, satellites, telecoms) and constant electricity generation to feed it, creation of credit cards, etc. This all seems to have a significantly greater effect than the creation of a new physical bill that lasts 6-10 years.

The communications equipment is obviously already there, and not going anywhere due to the utility of the internet. The externality of using the communication equipment for payments is negligible.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#378

Post by dvngnt_ » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:48 PM UTC

hackernewds wrote: post #141

lotsofpulp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't love that I also have a 3% tax going to VISA/Mastercard/Amex/... You don’t. The merchant you are buying from is choosing to pay 3% for credit card payments because they believe incentivizing people to pay with credit cards will result in them earning more (via higher prices or higher margin goods) than incentivizing them to pay with debit/cash. If a merchant wanted to, it would be trivial for them to give y…

Not to mention, cash transactions are slow and frustrating and fraught with fraud and risk of burglary. 3% is a positive ROI investment

so are cards https://youtu.be/FdtJResj1A8?feature=shared

don't forget skimmers

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#379

Post by Workaccount2 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

gomoboo wrote: post #316

brightball wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be surprised by how many larger stores and grocery stores especially are prepared to operate in low power or no power conditions if necessary. Another side effect of this DC rule will be to ensure that more are prepared too.

Yup I’ve seen a large grocery store keep business going during an extended power outage with hand-written ledgers and cash transactions. Customers kept coming in to shop despite the outage.

The restaurant I worked at years ago would bust out those old slider-carbon-copy things for credit cards during power outages.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#380

Post by nonrandomstring » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

mindondrugs wrote: post #298

throwaway9870 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never walked into a store and they said you can't use a CC because their reader is down? It is nice to have a few dollars in your pocket for times like that.

I dont think I have ever encountered this in my adult life honestly. A more common occasion is encountering a business that is cash only (usually small market stalls) and is infinitely more annoying as I have to go and take out a amount of money greater than the product I want to buy, leaving me with a rather annoying amount of loose change.

Agreed. Especially when there's no ATM for 5 miles.

Plurality of payment methods is always more desirable and more robust. If one is serious about business, why would you not take, cash, cheque, credit and debit cards, contactless, NFT phone, and bitcoin? Even if some of those are suboptimal, a sale is a sale.

The ability to negotiate and adapt is what makes the world go round.

One example; I was caught in an emergency needing to get a taxi to an airport. On the way I explained the situation to the driver, and ended up negotiating the fare as a mix of US dollars, Danish Kroners, and a good bottle of wine, where the official expected currency was Euros.

The problem comes with cashiers and managers who are not business owners and are terrified to do anything unusual. They are tied to procedural rote and unable to think dynamically. It's all about what they can't do even when evidently agreeable and favourable options are on the table.