D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect • Hacker News Board

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#361

Post by jdietrich » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

nyanmatt wrote: post #310

jdietrich wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure if it's possible to pay most bills in cash in my country. I have had a bank account frozen due to identity theft; it took me less than 10 minutes to open a new account and get a new debit card in my Google Wallet. The bank transferred my funds within a couple of hours and all of my recurring payments were automatically switched within a couple of days. Maybe my experiences are atypical, but my impre…

This is pure privilege to be able to open an account so quickly. Not everyone is so well off.

Again, I don't know what the situation is in the US, but over here it's a privilege available to anyone with a recognised form of ID issued by any EU member state. If you don't have that ID you'll have to go into a branch, but you have the legal right to a bank account, even if you have no home address, even if you've been made bankrupt, even if you don't have the legal right to be in the country.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#362

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

nirvdrum wrote: post #104

zoky wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t necessarily follow though. Consumers are more likely to go to a store that takes credit cards and spend more once they are there than a store that accepts only cash. If the merchant has to pay 3% in credit card fees for a 20% increase in revenue, that’s likely a good deal for the merchant.

There's a huge network effect that's effectively led to a 3% tax on the economy. Since every other store accepts credit cards, you need to too. It's not a case where a credit card allows someone that was going to buy a $500 TV to now spend $1,500. It's that you won't sell anything if you're a cash only business. And with Covid fewer people want to handle cash. Debit cards exist and partially solve the inconvenience o…

> There's a huge network effect that's effectively led to a 3% tax on the economy. Since every other store accepts credit cards, you need to too.

The point of the whole sub thread is that a merchant can always accept a credit card but still incentivize use of debit or cash by giving a discount.

> Debit cards exist and partially solve the inconvenience of holding cash. But, they're really inconvenient in other ways.

What inconveniences?

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#363

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

em500 wrote: post #128

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is accurate. India and China use cheap QR code transactions, but a lot of the overhead is taken in by VC money. So I think these companies are hoping to make money on these someday, just not right now. The USA has a pretty well developed system, and debit and credit cards have been pretty ubiquitous for a few decades now. The issue is that our system is expensive, and no one is subsidizing it for f…

Dunno about India, but in China the QR payments operated by Tencent and Alibaba are certainly not ran at loss.

They currently are, especially after Xi put a damper on Jack Ma’s fintech plans.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#364

Post by constantly » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

sbuttgereit wrote: post #340

OK... naturally this is a political discussion; but I find the politics of this interesting and maybe even amusing. I don't live in DC and at don't really have a horse in this race but I sense a contradiction. I think many would consider Washington D.C. to be governed solidly by American progressives. While the rationale for this law fits solidly within their views on egalitarianism, I wonder why no one is discussing…

What about electronic negative environmental externalities? It requires a while network of internet (backbones, cables, satellites, telecoms) and constant electricity generation to feed it, creation of credit cards, etc.

This all seems to have a significantly greater effect than the creation of a new physical bill that lasts 6-10 years.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#365

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

okokwhatever wrote: post #188

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #41

In my city, cash businesses are the first to be knocked over for drug money, so increasingly more and more businesses are forced to go cashless. By forcing all businesses to accept cash, this would re-spread the risk of armed robbery or burglary around.

Illegal stuff exists with and without legal pressure. I mean, if you're a bad guy believe me that a cashless society isn't going to stop you.

I’m agreeing! This would just redistribute the risk around. Right now, everyone knows what businesses are still carrying cash, it isn’t very fair to those businesses. This is more of a fairness issue: those guys are going to rob whatever, but so many businesses going cashless concentrates their activities.

If all businesses were cashless then they would find something else to grab. It wouldn’t be as easy or convenient as cash, they would need to use a fence, so maybe more shoplifting and smash and grabs.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#366

Post by someonehere » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

Ah yes. SF attempted to float this idea but critics argued it disenfranchises those that don’t have access to payment cards or access to technology that can provide terminal payments.

I tend to agree that physical cash should always be a viable option. Using a card or phone to pay at a terminal is a choice.

If you say, “but cash should be removed for ”, look at the Square outage a few weeks ago. About a day and a half of no ability to use mobile ordering or paying for goods and services. What happened? DNS issues. If DNS issues can cripple an economy and business livelihoods then there should be a backup.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#367

Post by curiousllama » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

sbuttgereit wrote: post #340

OK... naturally this is a political discussion; but I find the politics of this interesting and maybe even amusing. I don't live in DC and at don't really have a horse in this race but I sense a contradiction. I think many would consider Washington D.C. to be governed solidly by American progressives. While the rationale for this law fits solidly within their views on egalitarianism, I wonder why no one is discussing…

I've generally noticed, when I think "why haven't they thought of X" - they have, and I'm not paying attention.

> unaccounted for negative externalities

The scale of these is uncertain, as are countervailing externalities. Looks like someone wrote a paper on it in the UK and came to the conclusion that it's not clear which is worse (i.e., the externalities either way aren't big/clear enough to matter) [1]

> I would be curious to understand how progressives decide which priorities are of greater urgency than environment and climate

I don't think progressives think this way, rank ordering a hierarchy of preferences (to their credit and detriment, at different times). I think it tends to be more "we noticed [problem X] in [Community Y] - let's solve it!" leading to an amalgam of policies.

[1] https://www.actuaries.org.uk/system/files/field/document/Iss...

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#368

Post by maccard » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

blackshaw wrote: post #257

makeitdouble wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. But most businesses do. The main issue is there: why should a business be forced by law to accept cash if they absolutely need electricty and cables to work as a business ? It's one step below forcing them to accept hand written checks. Those are also extremely resilient, you just need a pen and paper. But god no I wouldn't want to deal with…

Let's think about who wouldn't be fine in a cashless economy: * Elderly people who struggle with technology. * People fleeing coercive situations like domestic abuse where their abuser controls their finances. * People with mental disabilities, for whom cash might be the only thing they know how to use. * Homeless people, who might literally rely on cash to survive. * Poorer people who prefer cash because it helps th…

> I have no idea how they do it. I'm not sure how it's even possible to navigate modern life without a bank account

My partners mum fits the bill of "underbanked". She lives in an area where cash is king (near the border of a country that uses a different currency). She has a bank account, but doesn't use her debit card or online banking.

The answer to "how it's possible" is that she relies on other people who do have bank accounts to do things that require online payments.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#369

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

bagels wrote: post #134

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the perp needs fent and Shake Shack has cash that can be used to purchase fent, the robbery is a product of need.

Nobody needs fentanyl.

They definitely “think” they need fent.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#370

Post by 6510 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

gomoboo wrote: post #316

brightball wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be surprised by how many larger stores and grocery stores especially are prepared to operate in low power or no power conditions if necessary. Another side effect of this DC rule will be to ensure that more are prepared too.

Yup I’ve seen a large grocery store keep business going during an extended power outage with hand-written ledgers and cash transactions. Customers kept coming in to shop despite the outage.

It should be a requirement. From all the national security bullshit I've seen this must be the easiest way to permanently turn a country into chaos.

Also funny is losing your id card/passport and your bank card/credit card simultaneously. You then need to get a new card from your bank that requires a valid id and you need to get a new id card which costs money. And no driving! "Gladly" this process takes so much time you can usually borrow money or pay it for you.