Why You Don't Need A Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#91

Post by anon01 » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 12:54 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #58

You know, this post had me nodding in agreement up until the last paragraph: "Note: I could easily switch this whole article around to all those programmers that think creating a company is as simple as launching an app. You’re just as stupid, so start asking for someone to help you grow what you’re working on, ask for a co-Founder." No. Frankly, we're not just as stupid. It's not as if just because marketers can't f…

Agree. When I go out to start a company (I've started 3 failed companies) I went to my lawyer and accountant, a marketing person from the local business chamber, I asked their advice, and followed it.

For some reason the people on the business/finance end seem to think they can just delegate everything and know how everything works based on whatever they heard in the news. They already decided on using the cloud, thats the hard part! Actually using it is just implementation right?

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#92

Post by redmagnet » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:08 PM UTC

I work at a typical web agency and in my experience one of the red flags for a project is the entrepeneur whose company's success relies solely on the website that we build for them (as opposed to most of our other customers who are building a website for an existing company). Hiring an agency to build a startup is a recipe for disaster. As well intentioned as they might seem, the agency just can't care about the project as much as a technical co-founder is going to care. Often when the business model turns out to be crap and there's no money left, the agency is blamed for building a website that doesn't "work".

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#93

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:39 PM UTC

lusr wrote: post #90

_3u10 wrote: post #11

If someone hires me to write something for them I write that for them, if they ask me for advice I give them advice. I don't get into arguments about how their idea won't work, or call them 'stupid', I charge them my rate for the work they ask me to do and I thank them when they pay me. You think the guys at the general store in 1849 told the gold prospectors that they were stupid and would lose their money? Or do yo…

Development work is nowhere NEAR the same as selling somebody something. It involves defining scope, deliverables and timelines. It involves a long-term commitment from two parties: you to provide skill and effort, and them to support you (because there WILL be gaps in the requirements) and pay you. In my experience in these "I've got an idea" situations, once you attempt to define the project concretely the client f…

You've not been a contractor? All you have are hours to sell, and its very similar to selling a pick or shovel.

Unethical? If you had a crystal ball that could predict the success of every new idea, sure its unethical to keep it secret. But just because you don't personally think its a good idea- well, it'd be unethical to put your bias in the way of this guy succeeding despite your doubt.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#94

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:40 PM UTC

larrys wrote: post #68

SatvikBeri wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the point of the post. The OP is saying that a lot of would-be entrepreneurs are vastly underestimating the amount of work involved in creating the actual software, and that the would-be entrepreneurs need a technical cofounder rather than an employed programmer. To use your analogy, this would be more like the store owners telling the prospectors, correctly, that they would also need to find legal help to…

"and that the would-be entrepreneurs need a technical cofounder" Part of the problem with this idea (as someone else commented "goes around like a windmill") is that a non-technical person is even in a position to judge the skills of a technical person (or vice versa). At least if you hire a programmer you can fire a programmer. If you take on the wrong co-founder (who doesn't have the ability or skills you thought t…

Try, try again. Like anything else, you have to take risks.

People who buy into "I can't make all the judgement calls with perfect accuracy" don't become entrepreneurs.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#95

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:44 PM UTC

sopooneo wrote: post #54

delinka wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I understand this question. No job you take (in the U.S.) is guaranteed to be there in a year's time. You might work for a month (being paid a month's salary) and poof the job's gone - company folded, political bullshit got you caught in the crossfire ... whatever. You keep a fraction of your income in savings for just such an occasion. You add that month to your résumé and move on to the next job that…

The parent's point is that some jobs are more likely to disappear than others, for example working for a company that seems likely to fail. And when the risk is higher, the skilled programmer might justifiably require that compensation be commensurately higher as well. Too often in discussions of risk management, someone points out that I could be hit by a bus.

Its a very different statistics, the chance of your job being around vs the chance of the company being around, in a year.

Jobs come and go all the time, even at Dell, even at GM. Rockwell (has a local plant in Cedar Rapids IA) hires and fires hundreds of engineers yearly, as the contracts come and go.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#96

Post by delinka » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:56 PM UTC

oliverhunt wrote: post #88

delinka wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like you're asking if an employee is willing to work for an employer who makes a profit off the employee's labor. And that, my friend, is exactly how business works.

So you disagree with the cofounder idea?

A co-founder is not the same as an employee. 1) don't make assumptions about a different subject from the one I'm commenting on; 2) if you actually want to have a discussion, ask a better question.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#97

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 2:02 PM UTC

oliverhunt wrote: post #88

delinka wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like you're asking if an employee is willing to work for an employer who makes a profit off the employee's labor. And that, my friend, is exactly how business works.

So you disagree with the cofounder idea?

[deleted]

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#98

Post by lusr » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 2:39 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #93

lusr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Development work is nowhere NEAR the same as selling somebody something. It involves defining scope, deliverables and timelines. It involves a long-term commitment from two parties: you to provide skill and effort, and them to support you (because there WILL be gaps in the requirements) and pay you. In my experience in these "I've got an idea" situations, once you attempt to define the project concretely the client f…

You've not been a contractor? All you have are hours to sell, and its very similar to selling a pick or shovel. Unethical? If you had a crystal ball that could predict the success of every new idea, sure its unethical to keep it secret. But just because you don't personally think its a good idea- well, it'd be unethical to put your bias in the way of this guy succeeding despite your doubt.

I am an independent contractor.

There are two types of contractors, and I have been both:

1. The "warm body" that does indeed just sell hours, usually via a labour broker or development house. They fulfil a "development resource" capacity required on the project, and typically there is already a project structure (plan(s), schedule(s) and management) in place. They are not directly responsible for the deliverables of the project. I am a warm body contractor because (2) freaks me out.

2. The "development house" (can just be one person despite the term) who initiates and manages the project in addition to doing the work. They have to define the project, agreeing on scope, timeline and budget because they are party to a contract and are directly responsible for the deliverables. If they screw any of these parts up (and that includes due diligence, e.g. can the client actually pay them, and how can you answer that question if you have no idea and agreement on project duration?!), their business stands to suffer losses. This has nothing to do with predicting success -- it has to do with contractual obligations and legal liability. They get to charge higher rates than (1) because of this additional skill required, risks involved and the associated differences in supply.

If you are a non-technical entrepreneur with no idea how to run technical projects and you seek out a warm body, you will get burned because that is not what you need (and this is part of what the linked article is about).

If you are a warm body who accepts such work - just selling hours and not a plan, a schedule and budget, yes I believe you are unethical because you are not ultimately providing what somebody expects, despite knowing their expectations, and that's the definition of misrepresentation (it's like selling somebody a car without a working engine and not stating that anywhere).

If you explain to them the risks, give them a plan that you honestly believe you can meet, and they still want to go ahead, shrug that's fine. But if you just say "yah I'll build it" knowing full well it's not going to be useful, or worse you're too naive to know how to manage projects but you're selling yourself as a professional developer that'll deliver, you're unethical.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#99

Post by lusr » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #58

You know, this post had me nodding in agreement up until the last paragraph: "Note: I could easily switch this whole article around to all those programmers that think creating a company is as simple as launching an app. You’re just as stupid, so start asking for someone to help you grow what you’re working on, ask for a co-Founder." No. Frankly, we're not just as stupid. It's not as if just because marketers can't f…

Let's put it this way. We've all heard of the lone programmer who built something entirely alone and made a million bucks from it. We've never heard of the lone businessman whose idea grew legs and programmed itself to make the guy a million bucks :)

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#100

Post by itmag » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 2:59 PM UTC

BadassFractal wrote: post #65

To the biz guys here who might think that we're unicorns, I'd like to point out that there are definitely people out there who are very technical and would love to co-found with someone more business-oriented. We generally have simple conditions for that to work: - you have to respect our work, because for us it's an art form and a craft, although we do realize that creating business value comes first. We spend decad…

To the biz guys here who might think that we're unicorns, I'd like to point out that there are definitely people out there who are very technical and would love to co-found with someone more business-oriented.

Amen to that. I'm a programmer and an idea guy (http://ideashower.posterous.com). But what I sorely need is a bad ass bizdev who I can team up with and git r done.