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India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

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Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#131

Post by danans »

fuzztester wrote: post #120
danans wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think "non-moving" in Sanskrit should be "achara", not "achaara", i.e. a short "a" sound, not a long one, for the second syllable. Thanks for the correction. Yes, "achaara" is non moving. "achara" simply doesn't exist AFAICT, so my point stands that it's a Persian borrowing, not a Sanskrit derivative.

>Thanks for the correction. Welcome. But you switched them around below in your reply, compared to what I said above: >Yes, "achaara" is non moving. "achara" simply doesn't exist AFAICT, so my point stands that it's a Persian borrowing, not a Sanskrit derivative. And regarding words that "don't exist": in Sanskrit, anyone can make up words, by combining other existing words, as I think (but am not sure) is the case i…

> compared to what I said above

Oops, well your comment will be the decoder then!

> And regarding words that "don't exist": in Sanskrit, anyone can make up words, by combining other existing words, as I think (but am not sure) is the case in German.

You are thinking of compounds.

Compounds are words that are composed (sometimes in realtime) of two or more independent words.

There are several classes of these categorized by their function. English also has such compounds, how it depicts them differently in writing, so we're not used to thinking of them as such.

Nonetheless, the presence of the realtime compounding mechanism does not show that the Hindi word "achaar" was not borrowed from medieval Persian, unless it can somehow be attested at an earlier time in Sanskrit, which it hasn't been. Furthermore, a real-time made-up compound "achaar" wouldn't make any sense by any of the Sanskrit compounding rules.

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#132

Post by danans »

19f191ty wrote: post #109
danans wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the Indo-Iranian etymology you are proposing? There is no attested word "achaara" referring to a pickle in any Sanskrit dictionary I know of (I just checked several). The standard Sanskrit words for pickle have very clear analyses, i.e. avaleha ("licked down"). A similar analysis of "achaara" in Sanskrit would lead to a nonsense meaning of "not-moving". Whereas, there is a clearly related Persian word "achaar…

I am not proposing any etymology. Just wanted to point that achar is not a loan word from Persian. It's not even the primary word for pickle in Persian actually (achar also means pickle but it sounds very odd in Persian, not an everyday word for pickle). That's what ticked me off about OP's comment. Pickle in Farsi is Torshi, especially in the Farsi that Mughals spoke (central Asian dialects). Afghans still call pick…

> That's what ticked me off about OP's comment. Pickle in Farsi is Torshi, especially in the Farsi that Mughals spoke (central Asian dialects). Afghans still call pickles torshi and not achar.

Words shift usage all the time. Especially in multi-linguistic scenarios, adaptation of terms is very common. Also, loan words often preserve archaisms. You see this quite clearly in the use of archaic Sanskrit borrowings in languages like Tamil or Malayalam when the same word has been lost in Hindi.

> I couldn't find the etymology for achar, but I found references to classical Persian (Avestan) and Proto-Indo-Iranian. Apparently Ayurveda mentions achar, so it's possible that at some point there was a distinction between medicinal pickles and popular everyday pickles.

Please share the credible original date-attested Ayurveda text sources that unequivocally demonstrate the occurrence of that word prior to the influence of the later Persian language.

Avestan alone is insufficient evidence because despite its similarities to Sanskrit, still has many lexical differences, and the presence of a word in Avestan doesn't immediately imply it's presence in Sanskrit.

Also, The Sanskrit sources contemporary with Avestan are in Vedic Sanskrit, which lacks that word.

Ayurveda texts are much younger, and are composed in Classical Sanskrit.

Also consider that borrowings occured even in ancient times (i.e. the word "kendra" meaning "center" is a direct borrowing from Greek into Sanskrit). Lateral transmission of vocabulary is as old as humanity.

> In either case, history of pickle in Indian subcontinent and words used to describe isn't as simple as a loan word.

I never questioned the history of the Indian food or the multitude of other words used in contemporary Indian languages. I'm only addressing the claim that the word "achaar" isn't a borrowing.

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#133

Post by fuzztester »

danans wrote: post #131
fuzztester wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Thanks for the correction. Welcome. But you switched them around below in your reply, compared to what I said above: >Yes, "achaara" is non moving. "achara" simply doesn't exist AFAICT, so my point stands that it's a Persian borrowing, not a Sanskrit derivative. And regarding words that "don't exist": in Sanskrit, anyone can make up words, by combining other existing words, as I think (but am not sure) is the case i…

> compared to what I said above Oops, well your comment will be the decoder then! > And regarding words that "don't exist": in Sanskrit, anyone can make up words, by combining other existing words, as I think (but am not sure) is the case in German. You are thinking of compounds. Compounds are words that are composed (sometimes in realtime) of two or more independent words. There are several classes of these categori…

>Compounds are words that are composed (sometimes in realtime) of two or more independent words.

The procedure (i.e., rules) for joining or combining multiple words into one larger word is collectively called sandhi in Sanskrit, IIRC.

There is also another related word and procedure that I forget right now.

I am not a linguist or a philologist or whatever the right term is, but one other way of generating new words is to add a prefix in front.

Like adding the prefix "a" (which implies negation) in front of a word, such as adding it front of "satya" (truth) to get "asatya" (falsehood / not truth).

There are other such prefixes in Sanskrit, such as "sa", "vi" and "pra", which are used, for example, in the words "savikalpa samadhi", "vijnana", and "prasiddha" or "pralaya", to name just a few.

Sanskrit is a very interesting language, to say the least ...

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#134

Post by indus »

yumraj wrote: post #115
indus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I no longer bring mango pickles from India——I started making it since 2022[0] San Francisco Bay Area Summer. [0] https://twitter.com/1ndus/status/1497310793964027908

Typically, at least in the North, mango pickle is made with green small desi mangoes which are rather sour. I haven’t seen those in the US. The only green mangoes I’ve seen are rather bland and not sour enough.

our local store in the bay area has on and off supply of green mangoes. I do not know about the variety but it does the job. It is not as sour as the ones found in India.

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#135

Post by 19f191ty »

danans wrote: post #132
19f191ty wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not proposing any etymology. Just wanted to point that achar is not a loan word from Persian. It's not even the primary word for pickle in Persian actually (achar also means pickle but it sounds very odd in Persian, not an everyday word for pickle). That's what ticked me off about OP's comment. Pickle in Farsi is Torshi, especially in the Farsi that Mughals spoke (central Asian dialects). Afghans still call pick…

> That's what ticked me off about OP's comment. Pickle in Farsi is Torshi, especially in the Farsi that Mughals spoke (central Asian dialects). Afghans still call pickles torshi and not achar. Words shift usage all the time. Especially in multi-linguistic scenarios, adaptation of terms is very common. Also, loan words often preserve archaisms. You see this quite clearly in the use of archaic Sanskrit borrowings in la…

Yes, languages chage and all, but words rarely completely disappear. If achar was originally Persian, then it has completely disappeared from modern Persian, which is bizzare.

This is how you spell achar in Persian, اچار. Find me a dictionary that has an entry for this word. You'll find it in Urdu dictionaries (same spelling), but not Persian, even Afghani Persian, which is much closer to Urdu. You know why that is? It's because achar is NOT a modern Persian word. And by modern I mean last 1000 years or so. It couldn't have been a Persian loan word because there are absolutely no references to it in Persian, at least in the last 1000 years. There's no credible evidence at all to that claim. Just some blog articles and non-experts parroting the same claim with zero knowledge of Persian or even most Indian languages.

As to the real etymology. I don't know man, not easy to find. You can Google Ayurveda and achar, that's all I got. Can't find the original Ayurvedic sources either. You sound like you know some vedas and Sanskrit. Would be great if you can lookup what pickles are called in Ayurveda. In the modern lingo, Ayurvedic pickles are also called achar. And Ayurveda products usually keep their original naming. I don't know of any example where they prefer a colloquial word over an Ayurvedic word. So they calling it achar seems to me that the word predates Ayurveda.

You're right, I couldn't find references to achar in Vedic Sanskrit or Avestan. So it's probably not that old. Although, it could be that those texts didn't bother writing about everyday things like pickles. If those texts mention pickles, but use a different word than achar, then one can claim that pickle wasn't called achar.

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#136

Post by plastic_bag »

suryao wrote: post #127
plastic_bag wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This brings back memories of my childhood. I am from a coastal village in (northern) Andhra Pradesh, India. We call it "పచ్చడి" (pachchadi) in Telugu. If it were to be made in a process usual to the rest of the state (or the country), it would not last longer due the village's close proximity to the sea. So my aunt and grandmother would also add jaggery to the pickle, to stop it from developing fungus sooner and to g…

I love bellam Avakaya. And the ginger garlic varieties are to die for. My uncle (60+ yo) is a true connoisseur though. He loves it so much and abhors the mass manufactured stuff that he actually gets small batches made in India and even sells it in the US where he lives. I helped build a Shopify storefront for him at Avakaya.com

> He loves it so much and abhors the mass manufactured stuff

Sounds like your uncle and I would get along really well.

It's sad that Bellam Avakaya (or Bellapu Avakaya as we call it in our home) is not as famous as the other varieties.

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#137

Post by plastic_bag »

nischalsamji wrote: post #89
plastic_bag wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This brings back memories of my childhood. I am from a coastal village in (northern) Andhra Pradesh, India. We call it "పచ్చడి" (pachchadi) in Telugu. If it were to be made in a process usual to the rest of the state (or the country), it would not last longer due the village's close proximity to the sea. So my aunt and grandmother would also add jaggery to the pickle, to stop it from developing fungus sooner and to g…

the right term is ఊరగాయ or ఆవకాయ.

I stand corrected. It is indeed ఊరగాయ.

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#138

Post by danans »

19f191ty wrote: post #135
danans wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's what ticked me off about OP's comment. Pickle in Farsi is Torshi, especially in the Farsi that Mughals spoke (central Asian dialects). Afghans still call pickles torshi and not achar. Words shift usage all the time. Especially in multi-linguistic scenarios, adaptation of terms is very common. Also, loan words often preserve archaisms. You see this quite clearly in the use of archaic Sanskrit borrowings in la…

Yes, languages chage and all, but words rarely completely disappear. If achar was originally Persian, then it has completely disappeared from modern Persian, which is bizzare. This is how you spell achar in Persian, اچار. Find me a dictionary that has an entry for this word. You'll find it in Urdu dictionaries (same spelling), but not Persian, even Afghani Persian, which is much closer to Urdu. You know why that is?…

> This is how you spell achar in Persian, اچار. Find me a dictionary that has an entry for this word.

Here you go:

https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/steingass_query.py?qs=...

Re: India’s pickle people: Decades-old culinary heirlooms, nostalgia

#139

Post by 19f191ty »

danans wrote: post #138
19f191ty wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, languages chage and all, but words rarely completely disappear. If achar was originally Persian, then it has completely disappeared from modern Persian, which is bizzare. This is how you spell achar in Persian, اچار. Find me a dictionary that has an entry for this word. You'll find it in Urdu dictionaries (same spelling), but not Persian, even Afghani Persian, which is much closer to Urdu. You know why that is?…

> This is how you spell achar in Persian, اچار. Find me a dictionary that has an entry for this word. Here you go: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/steingass_query.py?qs=...

Well there you go, so it seems there were records of the word's usage around 1820s. Nice job. I can tell you one thing though. In colloquial Persian, achar for pickle is not used. It sounds odd and usually signifies some relation with Indian style pickles
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