Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why You Don't Need A Programmer

thinkopen.ly

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 105 posts

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#81

Post by eplace »

Some Reasons Programmer Co-Founders Can Be Picky and Elusive

1. Risk is typically front-loaded for the programmer so they have to be more cautious. A programmer with no skills is much easier to spot early on than a business person with no skills.

2. The "programmer" role can often include many tasks that have nothing to do with programming. Often times "programming" means UI, UX, server management, DB management, server-side coding, API coding, website coding, and mobile development. For really inexperienced business co-founders this role may also include business card and flyer design, video demo creation, and remembering the company Wifi password.

3. 10% equity after doing 85% of the most important work is not a good deal, especially in a market where you're skills are in high demand.

4. Quality programming is not a commodity. Programming is more akin to painting or novel writing. A programmer may have an idea or possibly an outline to start but when the time comes their still free-styling most of it while forming new ideas as they go.

5. Technical co-founders are often willing to learn the business side of things. Business co-founders typically want nothing to do with learning the technical side of things.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#82

Post by lucian1900 »

noduerme wrote: post #58

You know, this post had me nodding in agreement up until the last paragraph: "Note: I could easily switch this whole article around to all those programmers that think creating a company is as simple as launching an app. You’re just as stupid, so start asking for someone to help you grow what you’re working on, ask for a co-Founder." No. Frankly, we're not just as stupid. It's not as if just because marketers can't f…

I'd say it's more about having time to do all the marketing and similar tasks.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#83

Post by daemon13 »

I am surprised to see this question resurfacing last half year because I think that the answer to this question was pretty much nailed down by Vinicius Vacanti in his blog post in Sep 2010 http://viniciusvacanti.com/2010/09/27/should-you-hire-a-prog...

In short - it depends on the nature of your start-up and the challenges your start-up is tackling. Depending on those you 3 options:

1. Find tech co-founder (and don't do start-up w/o such person).

2. Learn to code.

3. Outsource the programming.

If your case is #2, then read the guy's post http://viniciusvacanti.com/2010/09/13/cant-find-a-technical-... and some other posts in his blog.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#84

Post by patio11 »

JVIDEL wrote: post #40

I get the point, but there's another side to this: 9 out of 10 of all startups out there are a business method, they don't need 10x engineers to build new technologies, and what they want can be done by a freelancer using a CMS and some elbow grease.

A freelancer capable of "CMS and some elbow grease" has a few attractive options right now, including building "CMS and some elbow grease" for clueful clients who will compare his invoices to the change in the bottom line and pay accordingly, or taking "CMS and some elbow grease" and getting seed funding for it, or going to one of the numerous companies selling "CMS and some elbow grease" who are desperate for engineers and saying "I have two years of PHP experience and have shipped products. You are looking for an intermediate engineer. How much do you offer?" and then getting offered $120k plus benefits on the spot.

Periodically, I get a cold lead asking for work. A half dozen recently have been for Twilio development. The projects are typically not terribly technically challenging: solving real business problems for money, good ideas, probably 6 man-weeks on average. I quote my usual weekly rates (in preference to saying "I know where this conversation is going. The answer is no.") and regularly get told that a) I'm out of the budget and b) 5~10% of this deal would make me rich.

I am polite in the emails but, just between us geeks: that's cute.

P.S. Do you do Twilio development? Need work? Find my email, I'll filter out the jokers and pass you anyone who sounds serious. Do you do "CMS and elbow grease"? Pick up Twilio and double your bill rates. Or just double your bill rates.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#85

Post by rbarooah »

BadassFractal wrote: post #65

To the biz guys here who might think that we're unicorns, I'd like to point out that there are definitely people out there who are very technical and would love to co-found with someone more business-oriented. We generally have simple conditions for that to work: - you have to respect our work, because for us it's an art form and a craft, although we do realize that creating business value comes first. We spend decad…

Why shouldn't we respect each other's work simply because we're people, and we suffer when we try to cooperate with those who don't respect us?

Doesn't this go both ways?

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#86

Post by saurabh »

noduerme wrote: post #59
etherael wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP's point to this is that doing that would not be a good business move. I don't believe that in the canonical scenario simply telling the party in question that things are much more complicated than they can possibly imagine and expecting them to accept that is realistic. I have been a part of projects where first day in discussing the basics of the project the entrepreneur in question has the design "95% co…

So very right. This is why I charge by the hour and refer clients who don't like it to India. They come back eventually, defeated, but you know they're worthless dorm room hacks. Some of them will end up on wall street, and a few of them might eventually find jobs where they actually have to work to, y'know, make something. The rest will live on daddy's trust fund. We're towing them , not the other way around. Screw…

>This is why I charge by the hour and refer clients who don't like it to India.

Why don't you refer them to people in your own country? Why India?

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#87

Post by hef19898 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #16
amishforkfight wrote: post #4

Why do the technical people always seem to get the short end of the stick? I have people approaching me on a monthly basis with their 'great idea' and 'all I need is someone to code it', and compensation varies from 'money when it gets big' all the way up to a very enticing 20% equity. After working on a few of these I now ask for cash up front, no equity. I have plenty of my own ideas and not enough time to work on…

Heck as far as I can see I can't see the value of the business person at all, except for whatever connections he has. Now I am biased, but why would one go into a partnership with a business person in the first place.

From my own experience for the same reason why architects work with construction engineers. If your business person is actually the pointy haired manager type, well then you're screwed.

But that's not all a busíness founder does. For me, these guys are providing the market, the process knowledge and the knowledge about the needs of certain markets, espacially when the markets are not merely apps for Android and iOS. When your product is aiming at non-tech market, let's say health care, as a programmer you better have a co-founder who knows his trade since in these occasions programmers usually are only the guys crunching through poorly specified code.

Equal footing is the way to go. respect the skills of each other, and at least as important understand the language and the needs of one another. Being able to do X or Y doesn't necessarily make you a better person or founder, you know?

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#88

Post by oliverhunt »

delinka wrote: post #50
oliverhunt wrote: post #24

Are programmers really willing to put together a site for someone else while the other person has a view to make money from the idea, even if the programmer is payed at the going rate? what is the going rate?

This sounds like you're asking if an employee is willing to work for an employer who makes a profit off the employee's labor. And that, my friend, is exactly how business works.

So you disagree with the cofounder idea?

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#89

Post by facorreia »

noduerme wrote: post #59
etherael wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP's point to this is that doing that would not be a good business move. I don't believe that in the canonical scenario simply telling the party in question that things are much more complicated than they can possibly imagine and expecting them to accept that is realistic. I have been a part of projects where first day in discussing the basics of the project the entrepreneur in question has the design "95% co…

So very right. This is why I charge by the hour and refer clients who don't like it to India. They come back eventually, defeated, but you know they're worthless dorm room hacks. Some of them will end up on wall street, and a few of them might eventually find jobs where they actually have to work to, y'know, make something. The rest will live on daddy's trust fund. We're towing them , not the other way around. Screw…

I'm interested in how and why you would use PHP or Ruby to build a wireframe.

Re: Why You Don't Need A Programmer

#90

Post by lusr »

_3u10 wrote: post #11

If someone hires me to write something for them I write that for them, if they ask me for advice I give them advice. I don't get into arguments about how their idea won't work, or call them 'stupid', I charge them my rate for the work they ask me to do and I thank them when they pay me. You think the guys at the general store in 1849 told the gold prospectors that they were stupid and would lose their money? Or do yo…

Development work is nowhere NEAR the same as selling somebody something.

It involves defining scope, deliverables and timelines. It involves a long-term commitment from two parties: you to provide skill and effort, and them to support you (because there WILL be gaps in the requirements) and pay you.

In my experience in these "I've got an idea" situations, once you attempt to define the project concretely the client frequently realizes how far in over their head they are and changes their mind. And if you're not defining these things upfront then you're running a very risky business model: if you don't know timelines, how do you know how much budget they need to afford you? If you don't whether they can afford you, you're taking a big chance accepting the project.

(And if you are defining these things and realize the guy isn't going to succeed but take the work anyway without warning him, you're unethical).

Post reply on HN