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12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

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Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#241

Post by euroderf »

softfalcon wrote: post #218
throwaway290 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions that people back then lived around 35 years. I recall reading it's a mistaken interpretation of the average age, while many people died infants adults actually easily lived to 70+ yo. Is it true and he made the same mistake or am I thinking about a different period in history?

These statistics regularly make it sound like everyone was dying off around 30. In reality, it is due to infant mortality rates. Once you make it past a certain age (10-15 years) your life expectancy shoots up into the 40-60's easily. However, when you average the population out, those infant deaths tank the average life expectancy. I'm not surprised they glossed over this, most researchers do, because they don't wan…

Yes, "average life expectancy" is just misleading noise; "life expectancy at N" (3<=N<=5) is what you want.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#242

Post by hnbad »

dsign wrote: post #202
hnbad wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always funny to me how some people will go out of their way to avoid acknowledging that historical people may have liked sex or even been queer. My favorite example is that of two Roman men apparently living together as a household and having items with very graphic depictions of sexual acts between men. They were obviously two very heterosexual men (maybe brothers) and the depictions of men ravaging each other'…

:-) It is said[^1] that the God of the Jews ravaged Pompeii because of polarized views on the matter of sexuality. A bit later, they won the war for the heart of Western culture. So, yes, those bros had those statues and depictions for the sake of fertility and sports, and our modern occidental brains[^2] will keep glitching when told otherwise. [^1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP5MoLyWGw [^2] In case you feel t…

Your first link is to what seems to be a Christian mythology channel rather than a history channel, so I don't know what that brings to the table.

Your second link just emphasizes what I said: weiners don't universally mean "fertility symbol". I don't think the blokes drawing peckers on bathroom stalls do it either as a fertility symbol nor to ward off evil spirits, so this still doesn't address that other motivations can exist.

Also Pompeii is an actual place that was "ravaged" by a volcanic eruption, not "the God of the Jews". Unless you want to pin actual natural disasters in actual places in actual recorded history on a god of the gaps, I don't think sexuality had anything to do with the volcano.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#243

Post by coldpie »

throwaway290 wrote: post #215
coldpie wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the way, I had to sit through 6 unskippable 10-second ads to tell you the timestamp (2 ads every time I scrub around). Huh, does uBlock Origin not work for blocking ads on YouTube anymore?

I don't use extensions

Oof. I'm sorry to hear that.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#244

Post by hnbad »

gumby wrote: post #230
edgyquant wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone making sweeping statements that applies to all of hunter gatherer society is almost certainly wrong about at least a few cultures. We’re talking 1-3 million years worth of human society and cultural evolution.

Anthropological studies of (some of the few remaining) contemporary hunter-gatherer societies don't show the presumed division of labor (or several other presumptions either, like pervasive hinger, or the amount of time spent on food collection) written up by 19th century European naturalists.

To be clear: most of the original claims about historical, prehistorical and then-contemporary indigeneous societies that have survived into the Western cultural canon were written by people who were used to extrapolating from their own cultural and social norms to others and judging everything on a scale that favored them and their social hierarchies. This also bled over into other natural sciences, which is for example why Darwin's theory of evolution was so disruptive.

Another example is how a lot of national mythologies were invented largely out of thin air in the 17th through 19th centuries, e.g. the Scottish clan system with its strict lineages and tartans. Most of the mythology around kilts is pure fabrication.

Even in economics this can be found with the common wisdom that money/currency was preceded by bartering, which we now know to be an oversimplification to the point of being wrong with in-group gift economies apparently having been far more common and bartering being part of diplomacy between separate groups rather than something you'd do with your neighbor.

Arguably this tendency even persisted to the point where the myth of an "alpha wolf" arose based on observations of wolves in captivity that was quickly dispelled after actually looking at wolves able to roam in their natural environment.

If you want to present the Victorian Age as the pinnacle of human development, of course you'll see the "uncivilised" natives as beneath you in every way and after hunting their prey animals for game and destroying their natural resources claim that starvation is just part of their natural experience rather than something you inflicted on them by taking away their livelihoods. Luckily most fields of study have moved away from this antiquated approach but sadly there's a growing call among certain people to "return to tradition" and dismiss this as "woke" nonsense.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#245

Post by garfieldnate »

softfalcon wrote: post #218
throwaway290 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions that people back then lived around 35 years. I recall reading it's a mistaken interpretation of the average age, while many people died infants adults actually easily lived to 70+ yo. Is it true and he made the same mistake or am I thinking about a different period in history?

These statistics regularly make it sound like everyone was dying off around 30. In reality, it is due to infant mortality rates. Once you make it past a certain age (10-15 years) your life expectancy shoots up into the 40-60's easily. However, when you average the population out, those infant deaths tank the average life expectancy. I'm not surprised they glossed over this, most researchers do, because they don't wan…

I hope I don't regret asking, but I'm genuinely curious about the details here. What religious/political implications are there (in the US, I presume?) for babies and mothers dying a lot in the old times? I've never seen this discussion become polarized before.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#246

Post by softfalcon »

garfieldnate wrote: post #245
softfalcon wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These statistics regularly make it sound like everyone was dying off around 30. In reality, it is due to infant mortality rates. Once you make it past a certain age (10-15 years) your life expectancy shoots up into the 40-60's easily. However, when you average the population out, those infant deaths tank the average life expectancy. I'm not surprised they glossed over this, most researchers do, because they don't wan…

I hope I don't regret asking, but I'm genuinely curious about the details here. What religious/political implications are there (in the US, I presume?) for babies and mothers dying a lot in the old times? I've never seen this discussion become polarized before.

As you probably already know, medical science was stifled by the Catholic church for many years. In some ways, some medical practices were more accepted in the Muslim empires of the day. This creates a ultimately pointless but still real "superiority argument" around medieval and ancient times for these faiths.

There can be an ideological bent to try and label Rome (and by relation Catholicism) as being unclean and ungodly because it does not protect its young. Or even more extreme, suggest that their children die regularly because they are godless and that history proved it.

I hope I don't need to explain why this is very much an extremist point of view, but I'll say so regardless so that HN mods or other folks don't label me as being political/religious here.

In my history class, a religious argument of "my children are more godly and history proves it by the deaths" broke out between a group of very devout Orthodox, some Catholic folks, and some Muslim folks. All of them were trying to use the infant mortality rate as proof of some or the other's faith of god in their children. It got very weird, very fast. The professor had to break up the argument.

This happened in Alberta, the "religious zealotry" capital of Canada. Lots of religious conservatism here.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#247

Post by throwaway290 »

softfalcon wrote: post #246
garfieldnate wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I don't regret asking, but I'm genuinely curious about the details here. What religious/political implications are there (in the US, I presume?) for babies and mothers dying a lot in the old times? I've never seen this discussion become polarized before.

As you probably already know, medical science was stifled by the Catholic church for many years. In some ways, some medical practices were more accepted in the Muslim empires of the day. This creates a ultimately pointless but still real "superiority argument" around medieval and ancient times for these faiths. There can be an ideological bent to try and label Rome (and by relation Catholicism) as being unclean and u…

Wow. Never thought of this angle, religion wasn't on my radar concerning this question. Just found it counter intuitive that we live longer but not that much longer... Medicine's great but we have ways to go in our understanding.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#248

Post by nomel »

d1l wrote: post #187
nomel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it’s more a problem about longevity of the artifacts, rather than lack of talent or knowing one can pick up some mud and form a shape. They had very similar general intelligence and talents as us, at that time, and tens of thousand of years before. Today, it’s not terribly hard to find artistic kids who can mold extremely good faces, ponies, or whatever else they choose, from a lump of play dough. I assume…

A statistical review would show that you are almost certainly quite incorrect. Also, the "they" you refer to is "us".

Could you expand on that?

If they’re “us”, then that statistical review should show similar distributions to what we have now, especially in children. Can we see the artistic child’s work? It’s probably made of mud, so probably not. We only see accidents of preservation, due to the tools and final materials.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#249

Post by throwaway290 »

coldpie wrote: post #243
throwaway290 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use extensions

Oof. I'm sorry to hear that.

No need. I just don't generally watch YT anymore (aside from rare special cases) and I feel better off. Elsewhere ads don't reach my browser and waste my bandwidth.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#250

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

waterheater wrote: post #231
pachico wrote: post #198

Honest question. How do young-earth creationists react to these news? We don't have many in Spain, despite being quite a religious country, and I'm always intrigued.

svpk's comment aligns with my own understanding. Also, some young-earth creationists may say that God created the earth with age. If you ask them why God did that or where they find such information in the Bible, they'll either say it's part of God's plan or be silent. Another interesting place where young-earth creationists provide physical theories for biblical events is the Flood. Many ancient cultures have flood…

Interesting, but IMO 'biblical flooding' by torrential rain from a vapor canopy could easily being caused by less cataclysmic events. Like the double whammy of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunga_Tonga%E2%80%93Hunga_Ha%C... end 2021/begin 2022, saturating the atmosphere with large amounts of water vapor, like described here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9285945/

One could argue that was responsible for the severity of the recent rain storms all over the world. Now imagine what could happen if that volcanic eruption had been VEI 7.

Or some 'smaller' asteroid, not even a dinosaur killer, impacting deep ocean and vaporizing it. (Which propably would cause some tsunamis, too.)

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