Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Woman’s Story

raganwald.posterous.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 210 posts

Re: A Woman’s Story

#151

Post by _delirium »

Alex3917 wrote: post #118
moldbug wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Were found." Passive voice. Following the link, we discover that the "finder" is Judge Robert Peckham in 1979: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/17/us/robert-f-peckham-72-inf... No offense, but who the fsck is Bob Peckham? And why should anyone in 2012 care what he thought in 1979? BTW, he was in a position to "find" because LBJ made him a judge in 1966. Hear LBJ's enlightened racial perspectives here: http://www.youtu…

If you think something has changed since 1979 then the burden of proof is on you to show what that is, you don't get to just assert that everything is magically different now.

I think his argument was that a judicial determination in 1979 isn't really good evidence that it was true in 1979 either, because the courts aren't the most reliable judges of scientific facts.

[I haven't read enough of the voluminous literature on the IQ-test controversy to have an opinion myself, so I don't necessarily endorse that viewpoint.]

Re: A Woman’s Story

#152

Post by corin_ »

moldbug wrote: post #138
moldbug wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a fascist, possibly? Which is worse - a racist, or a fascist? Discuss. I'll give you my standard deal - I'll admit to being a fascist, if you'll admit to being a communist. I haven't gotten any takers yet but I'm looking forward to the first.

Apparently fascist is even worse! You know what - if someone, anyone, can tell me why it's absolutely necessary to persecute racists and fascists, yet utterly and completely wrong to persecute communists, I'll go whole hog and buy the R-word. Operators are standing by...

Because on one side you are discriminating against people, and on the other you aren't? They're not just opposite ends of the same spectrum, they're completely different. The opposite of communism isn't facism, it's capitalism - and the opporsite of facism isn't communism, it's just non-racism.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#153

Post by Tichy »

gwern wrote: post #130
Tichy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They haven't been shown to be biased" When I think about that question, I think about questions that would be harder for me (white caucasian) than somebody from another "race" or culture. That is easy: for example imagine selecting some kind of image puzzles involving kanjii symbols, or telling apart chinese faces. They are just images, right, so no bias? But it will be much more easy to tell them apart for somebody…

If you have the time, I'd be curious to know your answers to the following (95% confidence intervals if you want): 1. how many seconds did it take you to think up this refutation of IQ tests? 2. how many psychologist/psychometrician man-years do you estimate go into developing any particular IQ test like the RAPM or BOMAT? 3. what probability do you give that psychometricians have not also thought of your objection?…

Ok, now I have some more time.

First of all, the thing with the 2d vs 3d drawing was an actual real world example that I read about. So clearly there are some psychologists/psychometrians who were wrong about the interpretation of their tests.

As for 5: if it only takes a few seconds to find those answers, why don't you do it and give the answers to us?

Edit: I just tried googling "RAPM cultural bias" and didn't get any useful results. You really should provide the links. Of course your tone makes it likely that discussing with you is probably a waste of time anyway :-/

Re: A Woman’s Story

#154

Post by kaeluka »

mhartl wrote: post #9

There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing pieces, and she had to guess which s…

since an IQ test is measuring AND defining IQ at the same time, it's hard for it to be biased.

IQ is what IQ tests measure. It's all made up.

How is the situation in the U.S. regarding assessment centers? That kind of stuff is allowed?

Re: A Woman’s Story

#155

Post by Jagat »

rmc wrote: post #25
mhartl wrote: post #9

There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing pieces, and she had to guess which s…

This is essentially an IQ test, and what they discovered was that Gwen was highly intelligent. They then did the smart thing and judged her based on her demonstrated aptitude rather than on the prevailing prejudices of the day Actually, if you read the whole thing, they didn't believe her "demonstrated aptitude" because of their "prevailing prejedices". She had to fight to get them to see her demonstrated aptitude. M…

Interesting. Only if Justice Burger's son was name Hammond, in short Ham.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#156

Post by Jem »

RandallBrown wrote: post #150
RandallBrown wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in computing constantly feel like frauds.

I'm not sure why I'm getting down voted. It's the truth. Most women are made to feel like they don't belong in computing. I convinced my girlfriend to major in Computer Science in school and she's constantly telling me how she faked her way through school. She feels like the only reason she got through it is because I helped her. The reason she got through it is because she was smart. I didn't help her with her exams…

I'm not sure you're being down-voted either. I agree with you.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#157

Post by nitrogen »

nhebb wrote: post #56
lambda wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nowadays, it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants Citation needed. It is legal (at least based on the guidelines provided by the US Department of Labor: http://www.onetcenter.org/dl_files/empTestAsse.pdf ) to give people all kinds of tests as long as (a) they do not select against certain protected traditionally disadvantaged classes more than it does for the average applicant or (b) if it does…

>> Nowadays, it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants >Citation needed. Griggs v. Duke Power Co.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co . "Good intent or absence of discriminatory intent does not redeem employment procedures or testing mechanisms that operate as 'built-in headwinds' for minority groups" - Warren Burger, Chief Justice.

This story about a guy who was denied employment as a police offer because he scored too high on an IQ test is a sufficient counterexample to disprove the assertion that IQ tests are strictly illegal (the decision was upheld in court): http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836#.T3V6K3lRyxN

Re: A Woman’s Story

#158

Post by ylem »

mhartl wrote: post #9

There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing pieces, and she had to guess which s…

I think that your assertion that "unfounded prejudice is unstable in a competitive market for labor" has a tacit assumption that Gwen faced a competitive market for labor. For example, suppose other businesses will not work with you if you hire someone who is not "acceptable"? Suppose there are legal penalties (supported by members of the powerful group)? Suppose there is a union? My point is that that there are non-market forces which can strongly effect job selection.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#159

Post by bermanoid »

rmc wrote: post #25
mhartl wrote: post #9

There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing pieces, and she had to guess which s…

This is essentially an IQ test, and what they discovered was that Gwen was highly intelligent. They then did the smart thing and judged her based on her demonstrated aptitude rather than on the prevailing prejudices of the day Actually, if you read the whole thing, they didn't believe her "demonstrated aptitude" because of their "prevailing prejedices". She had to fight to get them to see her demonstrated aptitude. M…

Companies used to use IQ tests, and hence claim not be racist, and then be racist.

Companies still look at education, employment history, and ask questions that are trying to evaluate intellectual skills, interests, and abilities. Most of these will correlate with race pretty strongly, too. The entry-level job market is almost exclusively about checking for "good schooling and education".

What's particularly bad about IQ as compared to other measures of employability? Is it just that it's measuring skills that are non-job-specific, or is it actually more racially biased than other evaluation criteria?

I would naively think that IQ tests would be at least somewhat less sensitive to educational status than, for instance, looking directly at someone's educational background. In that case, would you similarly argue that looking at the "schooling" section of a person's resume is a way to claim not to be racist, and then be racist?

Re: A Woman’s Story

#160

Post by ktizo »

moldbug wrote: post #138
moldbug wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a fascist, possibly? Which is worse - a racist, or a fascist? Discuss. I'll give you my standard deal - I'll admit to being a fascist, if you'll admit to being a communist. I haven't gotten any takers yet but I'm looking forward to the first.

Apparently fascist is even worse! You know what - if someone, anyone, can tell me why it's absolutely necessary to persecute racists and fascists, yet utterly and completely wrong to persecute communists, I'll go whole hog and buy the R-word. Operators are standing by...

I don't think it is the operators that are standing by.

Folk in white coats with reassuring expressions maybe.

Post reply on HN