Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour • Hacker News Board

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#191

Post by nvm0n2 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

turquoisevar wrote: post #185

nvm0n2 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should ask some older eastern Europeans what they think about socialism, before haughtily speaking for everyone who lives in Europe. Socialism and its national variant wrecked Europe in the 20th century. People celebrated when it ended. To call it a rallying cry given that history is quite gross.

I’m old enough to remember when people called what you’re referring to “communism”, similar to how one might call the Democratic People's Republic of Korea “democratic”. It seems that now, based on your comment, it’s in vogue to call it socialism. At this rate, in a few years it’ll be called democratic socialism and not long after it’ll be called social democracy. I guess you gotta keep that Overton window moving. As…

I mean, arguments about the difference between the two are interesting in an academic sort of way if you're into Marxist theory, but the USSR called itself a union of socialist states. North Korea's constitution says it's a socialist state. Etc. They are very clear on this point. They are socialists, these are countries run by scholars of Marx and that's the term they use.

You can get into endless arguments about how they are No True Socialists but it just ends up being like a word game.

That's why the European parties that lean in that direction tend to cast themselves as "social democratic", a different term.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#192

Post by Vinnl » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 7:46 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #110

pakitan wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not reduce speed to 10km/h then? Even fewer people will be killed! This is the covid logic all over again. Let's lock everyone in their homes, we can't afford to have old people dying! Also, no, ICE cars generally don't pollute less at 30km/h, compared to 50km/h. Engine does the same work, just at lower gear.

> Why not reduce speed to 10km/h then? Even fewer people will be killed! It depends on how the street is used. There are places where maximum speed is 10 km/h. I grew up in the street like that: a "woonerf", a residential area where the street is explicitly meant for playing children, and cars have to go at pedestrian speeds of 5 or 10 km/h. The goal these is to not lock up kids in their homes, but encourage them to…

Doesn't really affect your point, but AFAIK the maximum speed on a woonerf is 15 km/h.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#193

Post by mcv » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:47 PM UTC

nvm0n2 wrote: post #178

mcv wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point 2 is nitpicking. Obviously every trip is different, but a reduction from 30 to 20 mph does not have nearly as big a difference on travel times as your proposal to reduce all the way to 10 or 5 would have. Everything is a compromise. 30 mph was a bad compromise because it's a deadly speed that will kill people in a collision. 20 mph is significantly safer. Reducing further to 10 mph or even 5 mph would not have…

Your first paragraph contains a one sentence explanation they could have easily chosen and presented, but they didn't. That's the complaint. > your proposal I haven't made any proposals. My proposed alternative would be for the Welsh government to focus on much bigger problems that they may actually have a mandate for. The alternatives were just examples to illustrate the point. Ask yourself why 20 and not 25, if it…

I can understand the situation is different in the UK. It's certainly seen some big decisions that weren't rooted in any kind of reality. And of course many other countries also suffer from the occasional decisions made for completely the wrong reasons.

But I'm not yet convinced that's the case here. I don't know the details of what's going on in Wales, but the Amsterdam decision to go from 50 to 30 makes a lot of sense. According to the graph matsemann posted (https://www.nullvisjonen-agder.no/images/grafikk/dodsrisiko-...), 30 is significantly safer than 50, whereas 40 is still in the middle of that curve.

Also, in Netherland, 30 is already a standard speed limit in many places, and it doesn't make sense to confuse the situation by introducing new speed limits in between the existing ones unless there's a really good reason to do so.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#194

Post by jochem9 » Tue, Oct 03, 2023, 5:55 AM UTC

marssaxman wrote: post #186

mcv wrote: post #4

The title makes it sound like streets in Amsterdam currently don't have a 30 km/h speed limit, and after December, they will all have a 30 km/h speed limit. The reality is that a lot of streets already have a 30 km/h speed limit, and have had them for years. It's been slowly expanding, and clearly will continue to expand even more. There will still be roads with higher speed limits, but their number will shrink. I ex…

Does changing the number on the sign actually cause the cars to move more slowly, in Amsterdam? That's not been the case where I've seen it done here in Seattle; people simply drive as fast as the road design makes it comfortable to drive.

There are also plans to change the road designs. First some new painted lines, later, when the road is up for renovation, a redesign to make it more obviously 30km/h.

People in Amsterdam tend to behave the same as how you describe the people in Seattle.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#195

Post by nvm0n2 » Tue, Oct 03, 2023, 7:58 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #193

nvm0n2 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first paragraph contains a one sentence explanation they could have easily chosen and presented, but they didn't. That's the complaint. > your proposal I haven't made any proposals. My proposed alternative would be for the Welsh government to focus on much bigger problems that they may actually have a mandate for. The alternatives were just examples to illustrate the point. Ask yourself why 20 and not 25, if it…

I can understand the situation is different in the UK. It's certainly seen some big decisions that weren't rooted in any kind of reality. And of course many other countries also suffer from the occasional decisions made for completely the wrong reasons. But I'm not yet convinced that's the case here. I don't know the details of what's going on in Wales, but the Amsterdam decision to go from 50 to 30 makes a lot of se…

It's pretty obvious what's going on, as this is one of several related actions all of which are intended to penalize or restrict car usage. We know the safety argument isn't the real reason because nothing has changed about safety lately that would trigger a sudden re-think here, they weren't talking about it before and the actual expected changes are in the order of single digit deaths per year. If it was a genuine concern about safety they'd have been pushing for this limit 50 years ago.

What's actually changed in the last few years is the new political obsession with net zero. Politicians don't have a mandate for that and haven't won the argument for it, which is why these measures are facing so much resistance.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#196

Post by turquoisevar » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:42 AM UTC

nvm0n2 wrote: post #191

turquoisevar wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m old enough to remember when people called what you’re referring to “communism”, similar to how one might call the Democratic People's Republic of Korea “democratic”. It seems that now, based on your comment, it’s in vogue to call it socialism. At this rate, in a few years it’ll be called democratic socialism and not long after it’ll be called social democracy. I guess you gotta keep that Overton window moving. As…

I mean, arguments about the difference between the two are interesting in an academic sort of way if you're into Marxist theory, but the USSR called itself a union of socialist states. North Korea's constitution says it's a socialist state. Etc. They are very clear on this point. They are socialists, these are countries run by scholars of Marx and that's the term they use. You can get into endless arguments about how…

> I mean, arguments about the difference between the two are interesting in an academic sort of way if you're into Marxist theory, but the USSR called itself a union of socialist states. North Korea's constitution says it's a socialist state. Etc. They are very clear on this point. They are socialists, these are countries run by scholars of Marx and that's the term they use.

You’re just continuing on the path of self-identification. Would you call North Korea democratic just because that’s what they call themselves?

If not, then why not when you seem to have no qualms calling them socialist because on the basis that they call themselves that in their constitution?

> You can get into endless arguments about how they are No True Socialists but it just ends up being like a word game.

You paint it as some sort of semantics game, meanwhile both socialism and communism are well defined.

Notwithstanding the different flavors, they all have certain elements in common as a fundamental requirement and no amount of trying to fit the Soviet shaped peg into a round hole changes that.

> That's why the European parties that lean in that direction tend to cast themselves as "social democratic", a different term

I understand that you use the word “tend” to hedge your bets, but your comment here implies a certain amount of ubiquity and lack of parties trying to distance themselves.

The reality is that that Europe has a slew of socialist parties that aren’t hiding it either, they’re often called “Socialist Party” in their respective language. Hell there are even some communist parties.

And it’s not like they don’t occupy any seats in the respective parliaments either. Most of these parties have significant presence in parliaments and at other levels.