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Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

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Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#681

Post by flashback2199 »

The_Colonel wrote: post #609
flashback2199 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I observed during the pandemic, I sincerely believe that the only reason remote work is worse than working in person is how little effort teams tend to put into making remote work equivalent to in person work. The biggest thing I saw throughout the entire pandemic on multiple teams was zero effort to create a culture of meet on camera for quick ad hoc, hey I have a quick question on this, ah cool thanks bye…

One of the problems associated with remote work is that synchronous communication is not guaranteed. People tend to work varying hours and even during their "work hours", they will make breaks to do various activities like household chores etc. So it tends to be more difficult to catch a co-worker for a quit chat. Then there's a feedback loop where you basically stop trying since it has such a low chance anyway.

To me, the work varying hours is part of the problem; if the remote work is expected to replace in office work, then similar hours have to be worked, in which case people need to be available throughout the work day.

To head off negative reaction to this, I'm not saying that remote should always be similar hours, I mean remote work positions that otherwise would have been in office before the pandemic, if that makes sense.

I just look at this situation and to me it looks like people are like, ohh noo, remote work isn't as good as in office work, well, yeah, you haven't even tried to make it anything like "in office work but thru a camera," you've almost allowed your domestic employees and contractors to work as if everyone's in different teams in different timezones, with all of the problems that come with that...

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#682

Post by RandomLensman »

gedy wrote: post #678
RandomLensman wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think soldiers in battle should send well crafted emails instead of shouting or just acting on observations? Not sure things are just "qualitative"...

Let's get real, white collar tech work is nothing like battles. Even outages are not that dramatic.

Not like physical danger, but can lose a lot of money in minutes in some places.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#684

Post by The_Colonel »

bit_logic wrote: post #664
The_Colonel wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then COVID happened and companies worked fine for three years with WFH. I don't think we have good data on that "worked fine" part. Personally I saw a significant degradation of our team performance during COVID remote. Some people slacked a lot (difficult to catch, though), many people worked hard (perhaps even harder than in office), but the bad communication reduced the overall team productivity a lot.

Where's the data? Before COVID, there were plenty of anecdotes from remote companies about how it helped their hiring and productivity, but that wasn't enough to convince the vast majority of companies to try WFH. They stubbornly said the status quo of in-office was enough and no further discussion was allowed. Now where's the data to change the status quo from WFH to the office? Amazon admits they have none. If the…

> Before COVID, there were plenty of anecdotes from remote companies about how it helped their hiring and productivity, but that wasn't enough to convince the vast majority of companies to try WFH.

I think there's a bit of a selection bias. I believe many people can work effectively remotely and these likely applied to remote companies. But many people are less effective remote and these wouldn't succeed in remote companies. In the end I certainly think there's a space for remote only companies, but I'm not sure if it's a model useful for the whole IT sector.

> All we hear are anecdotes, that wasn't good enough to change the status quo before COVID, why should it be enough now to change the status quo away from WFH?

In the end it doesn't matter. It's the managers calling the shots and carrying the responsibility. If their guts tell them office work is the right direction, it's their bet.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#686

Post by gamblor956 »

sys_64738 wrote: post #327
bradly wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a remote worker at Apple pre-pandemic and had no problems. After COVID I was told that moving states where I live would have to get some approval and is not guaranteed. I left Apple shortly after and have been contracting since. When I was in an office full time, I had to work my life around my work. When I have forty hours to fill out over a seven day period, I'm working my work around my life.

Why didn't you just move states and ask "forgiveness" later? Companies cannot tell you where and when to live and if they try it see who blinks first. I would certainly have ignored them and let them fire me or RIF me.

An employee in a state exposes the employer to legal, regulatory, and tax jurisdiction. Many employers are not set up to handle compliance in states other than where they are located, and even many multi-state employers may not be set up to handle compliance in a particular state.

Not all states are understanding about this either; many states are notorious for penalizing employers for failing to comply with compliance requirements they didn't know they had because an employer moved to a state without telling them.

Prior to COVID, many companies considered this grounds for for-cause termination. Even post-COVID, some companies still consider this grounds for for-cause termination.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#687

Post by paulddraper »

madmads wrote: post #257
paulddraper wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

I think it's assumed that it's within reason and in situations where the ultimatum has the purpose of pushing you into a situation you would prefer not to be in. The WoW example is an example of dysfunctional behavior and the HR example is a routine process and not unexpected from the recipient nor is the cost of filling it in extreme. Your examples don't apply and it should be obvious why.

Absolutely.

Hence "never choose the one giving you an ultimatum" is weird advice.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#688

Post by paulddraper »

throwanem wrote: post #217
paulddraper wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

Well, yes. Advice given to address one circumstance often does not apply in another, wholly different circumstance.

> Never choose the one giving you an ultimatum

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#689

Post by taylodl »

andrewmutz wrote: post #149
Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

> Today, as some companies are changing their remote work policies to be return-to-office, there seems to be a lot of resentment about this, and I don't really understand why.

Because these companies hired a lot of remote employees in the interim. Also, many of the employees of these companies decided to buy houses in areas where they could afford to buy a house instead of continuing to rent - and now after several years these companies want to renege?

How can you not understand the resentment? This is the biggest FUCK YOU in the history of corporate America.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#690

Post by nerevarthelame »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #139
bloopernova wrote: post #125

WFH: No commute. Disabled people can work. Less micro plastics in the environment from car tires. Potentially lower greenhouse emissions. No office means no costs from rent, heating/cooling, cleaning, furniture, etc etc. Spending time around your family. (Although on that last one, I really dislike kids screaming in the background of conference calls) Edited to add: I wonder how to compare energy usage or emissions?…

Why didn’t you list the negatives? And in a John Stewart Mill way, list the negatives in their most sincere and effective forms by the people that truly believe them. Not just your take that you happen to easily to refute. Steelman RTO from the point of a company dealing with WFH abuse and I’ll think you are more serious.

I manage a team of 20 people who are fully remote. We conduct audits of their work to ensure it's up to par. It's the same thing I'd be doing if they were in the office. I don't have any notable issues with WFH abuse.

My old boss ran a drop-shipping company with staff, multiple warehouses, and millions in revenue during the working hours of his primary job at the company we both worked for.

What's your point? Can you explain some of the WFH abuse you think is rampant, and how those problems wouldn't also be relevant in an office environment?

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