Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#151

Post by latchkey » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #144

latchkey wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that we need to look at both federal and state levels of funding for both education and military. Sure, if that's the only way you can consider things. If you add it all up across the entire US, with your terms, which one gets more funding today, Education or Military? Regardless, this isn't a d/ck size competition. What I'm saying is that we prioritize too much on military and too little on education.…

I don't need to bring better numbers to say your numbers aren't meaningful. I don't have time to find all 53? budgets for the states, territorities, and such, and probably neither do you, that's fine. If your point wasn't to compare sizes, why did you bring your numbers?

> If your point wasn't to compare sizes, why did you bring your numbers?

I'm not the one who cares about state funding, you are.

It is easy enough to say that at a federal level, we prioritize funding the military over education.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#152

Post by otoburb » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

>>Over the past few decades, college tuition and fees have metastasized, hitting an average of nearly $11,000 a year for in-state students who attend public four-year institutions, and now undergraduate enrollment is plummeting.

>>[...] Last year, as enrollment stagnated or declined in other states, New Mexico posted record gains. From spring 2022 to spring 2023, overall enrollment grew by 6 percent, and it jumped nearly 12 percent at branch community colleges.

This entire article conveniently omitted the fact that another driver for plummeting undergraduate enrollment is the "enrollment cliff"[1] that has already started to affect colleges across the board.

Yes, affordability is a large factor, and it's great that New Mexico was able to increase their enrollment numbers (as the article stated, a true anomaly), but the demographic backdrop should have been at least acknowledged.

[1] https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/23428166/college-enrollmen...

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#153

Post by meristohm » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #46

> There’s the age-old question of how we pay for this. Sanders proposed a Wall Street financial transactions tax. A 0.1 percent tax, according to a Congressional Budget Office estimate, could raise $777 billion over 10 years. Or we could hike taxes on corporations and the wealthiest Americans. I have no problem taxing wall street or "the wealthiest Americans", but I don't see the connection between this proposal and…

The connection is that we're alll living together on Earth. If you prefer a smaller "unit of belonging", those of us in the USA are all under the same governmental umbrella. What is a reasonable role of government?

My gentics and life experiences have shaped me into a person with the opinion that, for communities beyond Dunbar's Number of members (400? The point is that beyond a particular size for each culture and group of individuals things like laws, regulations, government entities, etc become necessary because we can't settle our differences well enough), taxes are generally a good thing, especially when spent on infrastructure, health care, housing, education, and food- basic needs that benefit everyone and reduce acute stresses that bring us all down, even if they're not in your backyard.

How much money or access to resources do you feel like is enough for you?

What's the value proposition in caring for, and lobbying for, the collective health of all people under the USA umbrella?

To what extent is it okay that we still, in 2023, benefit from legal slavery? The 13th Amendment keeps costs down for my military uniforms, for example, and keeps consumer prices lower than they might be if we paid workers a fair wage rather than assuming they're only value is as enslaved prisoners.

Wall Street money games are on the backs of people who help meet our basic needs. It is a height of entitlement to think that I should be able to benefit from their labor without paying for it with a progressive tax just because I want to play the game of "amass more and more money".

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#154

Post by runjake » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

actionfromafar wrote: post #41

runjake wrote: post #15

I don't believe even public colleges want this. They're raking in too much money, at this point.

who cares what they want.

Nobody. That's not the point. The point is that they will fight (and lobby) tooth and nail to prevent such an action.

They already have a close relationship with their political representatives, now imagine that plus large amounts of campaign donations and favors.

And YOU, you support this?! Why, it would degrade the quality of education students get now! /s of course

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#155

Post by biomcgary » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

jonhohle wrote: post #138

starkparker wrote: post #60

I was in the second high school class to get Louisiana's TOPS program, which at the time gave four years' full-ride tuition plus fees to any public state university with a nominal ACT score and generous GPA requirements (18 ACT and 2.5 GPA IIRC). Wouldn't be here today without it. My parents couldn't afford anything but the closest and shittiest university, with no compsci program (they only had a business computing…

> My parents couldn't afford anything… Not saying its the right way, but grew up without a lot of financial resources, no money specifically to pay for college, and I went to a private 4 year engineering program starting in 1999 by taking out boat-loads of loans. Going into school I had nothing and needed 100% of my tuition covered by loans, grants, or scholarships. I was reasonably confident that having an engineeri…

My college experience was similar and around the same time (but I tacked on a biology PhD and post-doc, which delayed earning considerably). My impression is that the cost of higher education has increased considerably over the past two decades relative to general inflation and expected income. Increased expense reduces lifetime ROI of education considerably and delays many milestones (e.g. purchase of first home).

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#156

Post by omginternets » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

owenmarshall wrote: post #95

omginternets wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... I agree. I'm not sure what your point is?

When I've heard this argument advanced before, it's had the subtext that "limited capacity is not a problem today but becomes one in other contexts" I made the assumption that's what you were hinting at.

Ah, I see. No, my point is rather that countries with public education/healthcare/etc have historically restricted access to these services in some reasonable way. For instance, you can only pursue one degree on the state's dime in France. Or, you can't access public healthcare if you are not a legal immigrant. Things like that.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#157

Post by gumby » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

This is an excellent point. The selective private schools account for a tiny number of students (e.g. MIT takes in about 1K undergrads a year). And in my experience of both having attended such a school and having hired tons of people from all sorts of backgrounds over almost four decades, while some really do benefit from that fancy schooling, most end up with an OK education. Meanwhile the ones who did community college->state school have all been great hires, and you can get a super education at a lot of state schools.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#158

Post by Quillbert182 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

It’s already free in several states. Georgia pays full tuition for in-state students who maintain a certain GPA, and I know Florida does something similar, both funded completely by a tax on the lottery. Students do still have to pay some fees, but the cost is relatively quite small.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#159

Post by currymj » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

ETH Zurich and EPFL (in Lausanne) are elite technical schools, which also have extremely low tuition (roughly $1000 total per semester) and open admissions.

There is no entrance exam required for students who have a Swiss high school degree that qualifies them to attend university at all -- they may simply enroll.

The trick is that the first year or two are made extremely difficult so many people drop out. However, tuition is so low that this is not really a disaster that derails your whole life.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#160

Post by jncfhnb » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #46

> There’s the age-old question of how we pay for this. Sanders proposed a Wall Street financial transactions tax. A 0.1 percent tax, according to a Congressional Budget Office estimate, could raise $777 billion over 10 years. Or we could hike taxes on corporations and the wealthiest Americans. I have no problem taxing wall street or "the wealthiest Americans", but I don't see the connection between this proposal and…

It’s probably a pretty smart idea. The “ideal tax” is probably a wealth indexed income tax. We don’t like the idea of just taxing wealth because you have it. We do tax income but it’s hard to scale it in a way that people perceive as fair. What we want is to make it harder for the rich to get richer without making it harder for the poor to get rich. That is, if you’re a billionaire, every dollar is taxed at 99 cents. If you have no money it’s taxed at 0. And if you’re middle class it’s done at a rate ballpark like today.

But measuring wealth as a pre req to implement a tax is really hard. You can assume that wealthy people own the wealth generating assets though basically by definition. A 0.1% tax on financial transactions would affect very little in the average Americans life. It would matter immensely to people who derive their income largely by sitting back and collecting economic rent.