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2023 DevOps Is Terrible

abidmoon.hashnode.dev

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Re: 2023 DevOps Is Terrible

#111

Post by nunez »

KaiserPro wrote: post #51

I think the biggest issue with devops is that it originally meant "socialising" your sysadmins, by getting them to sit with your devs, so that shit didn't get lost because nobody thought to talk to the right team. But then it morphed into "oh lets innovate with infrastructure" but the innovation turned into "lol lets just restart from scratch and ignore history" Anybody who used early k8s can attest to how un product…

...and all of that is before looking at the tools in the CNCF diagram.

Maybe this is "old man yells at cloud" me but I miss 2015 DevOps.

If you knew Terraform, Ansible/Chef, a monitoring tool, a cloud (usually AWS) and a programming language (usually Python), you were all set and could still be idiomatically/culturally DevOps.

And I say that as someone that knows Kubernetes very well

Re: 2023 DevOps Is Terrible

#112

Post by nunez »

hinkley wrote: post #2

The fact that we have a “devops team” at work infuriates me. It’s enough to distract me me from how “Scrum” has destroyed Agile.

That was never supposed to happen, and DevOps enthusiasts still think that's a joke. Unfortunately, at some places, that was the _only_ way to get higher-up people thinking about the culture.

Kind of like the idea of a scrum master, which was never supposed to be a role

Re: 2023 DevOps Is Terrible

#113

Post by nunez »

2023 DevOps is awesome.

Today's "sysadmins" are kind-of, sort-of expected to know a programming language, at least superficially. This was definitely not the case in 2015.

The whole idea of Platform Engineering formally existing (I.e. platform is a product) is fantastic. There has always been lip service from IT about treating the rest of the business as customers, but the definition of "customer" was usually bastardized to fit whatever agenda IT execs wanted to push. Not the case (as much) anymore.

Also, the idea that today's "sysadmins" are part of application delivery into production was extremely nascent in 2015. Most sysadmin jobs didn't touch apps with a 10-ft pole back then. This, IMO, is the greatest benefit the movement brought to bear.

Shoot, even the fact that saying DevOps feels dated because it's obvious now demonstrates how far we've come.

Saved the best for last. Kubernetes is hella complicated compared to 2015 "DevOps" tech stack (which i miss because they are simple), but provides so so so SO many benefits for free, especially if you're not in public cloud.

Re: 2023 DevOps Is Terrible

#116

Post by dijit »

nunez wrote: post #113

2023 DevOps is awesome. Today's "sysadmins" are kind-of, sort-of expected to know a programming language, at least superficially. This was definitely not the case in 2015. The whole idea of Platform Engineering formally existing (I.e. platform is a product) is fantastic. There has always been lip service from IT about treating the rest of the business as customers, but the definition of "customer" was usually bastard…

> Today's "sysadmins" are kind-of, sort-of expected to know a programming language, at least superficially. This was definitely not the case in 2015.

There was a "weird period" in 2010-2014 where mid level sysadmins didn't know much scripting or automation. I'm not sure how that happened.

Senior sysadmins always scripted, Ruby was the de-facto choice for those folks in 2010-2015; before that it was mostly perl, and after that it seems to be mostly python.

Mid-level sysadmins definitely knew bash and perl in 2000-2010.

I think it was the rise of calling level 3 helpdesk "sysadmin" that sullied the brand. But the same will happen with other disciplines. I'm sure I'll hear in a couple years about SRE's or DevOps who can't code.

Heck, I bet there are already devops who can't code, who only know how to template yaml.

Re: 2023 DevOps Is Terrible

#117

Post by hgopolis »

rswail wrote: post #103
hgopolis wrote: post #102

Sysadmin, devops, platform eng all suffer from made up problems. What’s IAM? Access control. What’s a firewall? Access control. What’s a route table? Access control. What are resource limits and reservations? Access control. Yet years of legacy solutions has us discussing all these things as if they are fundamentally different. User management comes wrapped in vacuous jargon. Network addressing schemes are completely…

Calling a route table "access control" is not useful. It's not access control, it's literally in the name, it is about navigation of the network via routes. As for your comment about the "pocket protector committee" that's just ad hominem attacks on the people that keep the internet running. Saying that NDP is more complicated than ARP/RARP etc because it has a different name is, again, attacking actual needs because…

I design motherboards for network devices; I keep the internet going.

Routes are inaccessible without access to them. The underlying machine states to check for access to a route is algorithmically similar to the other checking for user access.

It’s unfortunate so many are allowed to work in IT with cliff notes level awareness of how technology works.

The layers of indirection you work with are the knobs and buttons people like me choose. You merely obfuscate with vacuous jargon to serve your career goals.

Re: 2023 DevOps Is Terrible

#118

Post by whstl »

KaiserPro wrote: post #108
whstl wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but how did you manage to make so many assumptions from that? Everything I need from Ops is already enumerated and specified more than well in tickets (which is required, as is par for course with the sysadmin from hell stereotype), and documented in Markdown files within my app's source code. I generate scripts for them since that's what they WANT and ASKED for several times. They literally want me and other…

> I can't change other people's behavior. I can only change mine. Ah my friend, you totally can change other people's behaviour. go on. hug an ops, sit next to them and work with them. show them a bit of love and make them feel part of the team. Think about it from their view, why don't they trust your scripts? Why dont they feel empowered to spin up a staging area? is it a skills gap? fear? or do they not feel confi…

Skills gap from a chunk of the team, lack of time, lack of trust in developers, not accepting help when offered, not accepting that developers have the best interest of the company in mind, not accepting qualification of developers.

I can only offer help, do what they ask and try to make their life as easy as possible... I can't hug people via Jira tickets. Yeah, they're that isolated.

Re: 2023 DevOps Is Terrible

#120

Post by fragmede »

tryauuum wrote: post #96
notanormalnerd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you mean, DevOps has made Sysadmins more service oriented and now instead of having their pets and being in overprotective silos, they actually provide best practices and proper platforms for the poeple developing the software?

god do I hate the "pet" analogy yes this server is special to me. No, I cannot move workloads somewhere else and shoot the server in the head. Because customers are running GPU workloads there, I cannot transparently migrate them

How does the analogy falling flat for you? GPUs are interchangable resources; an H100 is just like any other H100, even if you can't take a snapshot of an intermediate state from one and load it onto another and resume.
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