Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#561

Post by theonlybutlet » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #536

KoolKat23 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Times change and so should companies. It's also not unreasonable for people to expect more from their job than a simple transaction. Before COVID, most places operated without tools such as Microsoft Teams and an assumption that remote work is untested and unproven to work in their setting. This is now not the case, and people are rightly questioning why a return is necessary. They've proven they can make it work and…

> When the internet goes down, why aren't people simply just sending faxes? My phones are 1) a VOIPphone, and 2) a mobile device. The former relies on the internet; the latter can't send a FAX. PSTN is 90's technology, fewer and fewer people have a PSTN line.

So you kept up with the times. Good for you haha. I'm guessing there was some efficiency, simplicity in not going out and getting a PTSN line. Much like remote work, same results whilst cutting out inefficient offices and convoluted commutes.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#562

Post by eropple » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #466

snotrockets wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers can't look out of the office and feel powerful by watching the people they control.

Here are a few things that aren't working out from a management perspective: Social bonding is much harder, but important for reliable collaboration, especially when there are disagreements. I also believe that conversations are more likely to derail when they aren't in person. I've also been part of so many lunch conversations in the office that resulted in someone being able to help out someone on a different team…

IMO: skill issue.

Communicating effectively on camera is a learnable skill, it's not one most people in tech have. But making sure people are trained to do a good job is a management challenge and it's incumbent upon management to make sure people are doing it. If, after two years, your team still has trouble having real conversations over a teleconferencing solution? That's a management failure.

"Lunchroom conversations" are arguably the hardest thing to foment in a remote environment for sure, but between things like cross-teams with breakouts and the like, you can do it. And some people are going to do it naturally; I know what most of my director's peers' teams are up to and I have contacts in all of them, while also touching base with them on a regular basis. If your teams don't have people who do this naturally, assign it. If you don't, that too is a management failure.

"It's hard" is true, for sure. But "we decided we don't want to and never wanted to try, so we're going to inflict misery on our employees" is an abrogation of the employer's part of the social contract.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#563

Post by Scoring6931 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #389

gonehome wrote: post #72

This is a classic HN post that will get a lot of positive attention here playing into the HN cognitive bias zeitgeist, but I think is mostly bullshit. The market will settle it in the end, but at least for startups being colocated is a competitive advantage.

On that note, I also did not understand the post about H1B workers. Ostensibly a primary reason for the existence of the visa category in their first place is to fulfill the need for foreign talent that needs to be PRESENT in the US.

It is about being present in the office. As opposed to working from home, as in a house in the US.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#564

Post by ghaff » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #378

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

I think it’s important to remember people had been subjected to literally decades of propaganda that remote work didn’t work. When everyone was forced to do it, many learned that it is not only possible but results in better overall life satisfaction. I’m sure some people learned they really hate remote work, but my guess is there were more converts the other direction. Also, the commercial real estate market is gett…

If you went back 20/25 years, it's probably fair to say that remote work wouldn't have worked in general. Had COVID happened in 1995, I expect that there would have been a lot more shrugging and getting on with business/school/etc. because there really wouldn't have been other realistic options.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#565

Post by theonlybutlet » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

uhhhhhhh wrote: post #514

EFreethought wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> remote work isn't working for us It is working out. I looked at a few financial statements for a few companies pushing RTO (Amazon and a couple of Wall Street firms). Granted, it wasn't comprehensive or scientific, but: They all made more money in 2022 than in 2019 (the last year before COVID). So I really do not see what the problem is.

See recent push for operating margins needing to be at arbitrarily high levels etc and companies facing activists investors groups this year. It's not about making money. They need to make more of it, by pushing margin growth. It's an absolute value extraction play from investment groups that hurts every company it touches.

And what better way than soft-layoffs.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#566

Post by redwall_hp » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

snotrockets wrote: post #432

Spooky23 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that simple - it’s a stupid control thing. When you have these top down mandates with measurements, now you’re introducing new surveillance and metrics that are both disruptive and counter-productive. I’m not a remote zealot - I probably average two days a week, sometimes half days. I live a 20 minute walk/5 minute drive from work in a central business district. I’m a senior leader with hundreds of employees…

Fast food employees are professionals as well (have you ever worked a fast food job? It's hard, and requires practice to excel at)

That's not what professional means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession

Even skilled laborers, like plumbers and electricians, are not in a profession. They're members of a trade.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#567

Post by biomcgary » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

drewcoo wrote: post #463

macksd wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because they are actually struggling to admit deeper problems with the company culture and processes that they don't know how to solve, and so they're trying RTO to see if it fixes things.

> they're trying RTO to see if it fixes things It doesn't need to fix things. It just needs to appear they're "doing something."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_bias

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#568

Post by eropple » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

xpe wrote: post #411

KoolKat23 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Times change and so should companies. It's also not unreasonable for people to expect more from their job than a simple transaction. Before COVID, most places operated without tools such as Microsoft Teams and an assumption that remote work is untested and unproven to work in their setting. This is now not the case, and people are rightly questioning why a return is necessary. They've proven they can make it work and…

> It's also not unreasonable for people to expect more from their job than a simple transaction. This. Finding the balance is challenging. - It is often unhealthy to expect too much from work. - most software/hardware tech employers ask employees to be more than contractors and to care more than just a paycheck - at the same time we see corporate decisions that are largely shortsighted, and sometimes even self-defeat…

You ask good questions. Historically, no, software craftspeople and technologists do not pay it forward. In my experience, my parents' generation of engineers were more of the "someday, I'll be that boot" variety. I see a little less of that in mine, but still plenty of it; that's how startups mostly operate today. But I have a little more hope for the next generation to mount more resistance to it.

There will always be toads, but there might be some people in there, too.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#569

Post by EPWN3D » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #72

This is a classic HN post that will get a lot of positive attention here playing into the HN cognitive bias zeitgeist, but I think is mostly bullshit. The market will settle it in the end, but at least for startups being colocated is a competitive advantage.

I'm not so sure -- the in-concert RTO hardline from FAANG has a very "collusion" vibe to it. Those CEOs probably got together specifically to undermine the labor market's natural incentives. It'd be great if the DoL looked into that like they did when these CEOs colluded to keep salaries and comp down across Silicon Valley.

And don't forget that these companies all have policies of not hiring high-level ICs from the outside. So if you're at that level, your options to jump ship can be quite limited unless your current employer is truly toxic. Again, a practice designed to keep comp at the top IC bands down.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#570

Post by pjdesno » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

1) Ironically, just before COVID a decent number of companies decided to transition to "hot-desking" policies where employees aren't in the office 5 days a week, and rather than having an office or cube, you have to sign up for a random desk each day you come in.

The cognitive dissonance when these companies impose "return-to-office" policies is huge. They already made a decision that it's not worth renting enough real estate to have employees in the office 5 days a week, so most of their arguments for the value of in-person work are transparently hypocritical.

2) in some cities (I live in Boston) the commute has gotten much worse than pre-COVID, at least on Tuesday through Thursday. Return-to-office policies aren't asking employees to return to their prior mode of working - they're asking them to spend an additional hour or more commuting than what they originally signed up for.