A Woman’s Story • Hacker News Board

Re: A Woman’s Story

#121

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 12:52 AM UTC

moldbug wrote: post #84

rmc wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This the old trope that now-a-days the pendulum has swung too far and women, blacks etc. are now in a privileged position compared to white, straight, anglo men. Nonsense. And spreads the idea that all black people shouldn't be where they are in the company and are all tricksters who are rubbish at their job.

Think like a smart person - you obviously are one. If you wanted to confirm or deny this "old trope," how would you do so? What evidence would prove or disprove it? If you wanted to identify such privileges, what would they look like? What about counter-privileges which offset them? A fun thought-experiment, for instance, is imagining that "women, blacks etc." could sell whatever privileges they have to groups that I…

[deleted]

Re: A Woman’s Story

#122

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:15 AM UTC

kahirsch wrote: post #42

rmc wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially an IQ test, and what they discovered was that Gwen was highly intelligent. They then did the smart thing and judged her based on her demonstrated aptitude rather than on the prevailing prejudices of the day Actually, if you read the whole thing, they didn't believe her "demonstrated aptitude" because of their "prevailing prejedices". She had to fight to get them to see her demonstrated aptitude. M…

> That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA). This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. "Disparate impact" merely means that blacks…

Most IQ tests - at least ones I've seen - are highly trainable, both in general (you learn to think certain way) and in particular (you learn to solve specific type of test). So while tests aren't race-dependent and there's no reason to think they might be, they definitely can be culture-dependent and income (or, more precisely, education level and type) dependent. So while the test is an objective measure, it in an objective measure of test performance, which may not be strongly correlated with the actual work performance. Remember those "move the mount Fuji" interview questions which were so in fashion some years ago?

I'm not saying banning them completely the right answer here, but putting too much faith into these tests can be dangerous too.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#123

Post by kahirsch » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:20 AM UTC

egiva wrote: post #102

kahirsch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA). This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. "Disparate impact" merely means that blacks…

> This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. I think you illustrate the danger of making assertions without being entirely informed - that is to say that what you state here is the beginning of the truth, but taken out of context. There was (and in many cases still is) a heav…

> There was (and in many cases still is) a heavy cultural bias built into standardized IQ testing. Traditionally, most tests were developed and tested against middle-income, white children.

"It has been suggested that various aspects of the way tests are formulated and administered may put African Americans at a disadvantage. The language of testing is a standard form of English with which some Blacks may not be familiar; specific vocabulary items are often unfamiliar to Black children; the tests are often given by White examiners rather than by more familiar Black teachers; African Americans may not be motivated to work hard on tests that so clearly reflect White values; the time demands of some tests may be alien to Black culture. (Similar suggestions have been made in connection with the test performance of Hispanic Americans, e.g., Rodriguez, 1992.) Many of these suggestions are plausible, and such mechanisms may play a role in particular cases. Controlled studies have shown, however, that none of them contributes substantially to the Black/White differential under discussion here (Jensen, 1980; Reynolds & Brown, 1984; for a different view see Helms, 1992). Moreover, efforts to devise reliable and valid tests that would minimize disadvantages of this kind have been unsuccessful."

From pp. 93-94 in "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns" (1996), Ulric Neisser, et al. Report of a Task Force Established by the American Psychological Association

http://internal.psychology.illinois.edu/~broberts/Neisser%20...

Re: A Woman’s Story

#124

Post by flocial » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:39 AM UTC

nhebb wrote: post #56

lambda wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nowadays, it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants Citation needed. It is legal (at least based on the guidelines provided by the US Department of Labor: http://www.onetcenter.org/dl_files/empTestAsse.pdf ) to give people all kinds of tests as long as (a) they do not select against certain protected traditionally disadvantaged classes more than it does for the average applicant or (b) if it does…

>> Nowadays, it is illegal in the U.S. to give IQ tests to job applicants >Citation needed. Griggs v. Duke Power Co.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co . "Good intent or absence of discriminatory intent does not redeem employment procedures or testing mechanisms that operate as 'built-in headwinds' for minority groups" - Warren Burger, Chief Justice.

It really depends on the job doesn't it? Google doesn't get sued for making logic puzzles part of the hiring process just as Hooters is free to exclusively hire buxom young women for their floor staff. Like many of the complicated regulations in the US there is no clear line and many loopholes to be exploited.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#125

Post by VigUi7vv8G2 » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:45 AM UTC

moldbug wrote: post #44

raganwald wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a conspiracy theory? At the risk of dragging this thread back onto the topic of the story... The story describes a number of people who put obstacles in Gwen’s way. None of them are described as being malicious, none of them got together and “conspired.” Some of them genuinely thought they were acting in Gwen’s best interests. So if someone says that IQ tests were set up in such a way as to create bias, perha…

"Set up in such a way as to" is a deliberately ambiguous construction. It allows the reader to believe that there is, or is not, a conspiracy. If I say, "Harvard admissions are set up in such a way as to admit large numbers of Jews," someone believing in a Jewish conspiracy will hear my dog-whistle and agree with me. But to someone not believing in a Jewish conspiracy, I can deny everything. A highly useful and malig…

"If I say, "Harvard admissions are set up in such a way as to admit large numbers of Jews," someone believing in a Jewish conspiracy will hear my dog-whistle and agree with me."

Actually, in the past Harvard deliberately restricted the number of jews they admitted: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/ha...

Re: A Woman’s Story

#126

Post by flocial » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:47 AM UTC

I immediately knew it was about your mother after the first few paragraphs. Just a bit sad that the debate here quickly degenerated into the political correctness of IQ tests and the very loaded debate of IQ and race.

When you omit skin color and gender from the story, it's an inspiring story of family values triumphing over environment. It would also be reasonable to say that this family probably has a higher level of native intelligence than the average but they also have instilled the value of hard work and perseverance to make the most of their potential so even if they were average, they would get better results given the same potential.

I'm always puzzled at how quickly intelligent debate breaks down among Americans the second gender or race become part of the discussion.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#127

Post by VigUi7vv8G2 » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:47 AM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #9

There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing pieces, and she had to guess which s…

There is nothing illegal about giving IQ tests to job applicants. If companies are afraid to do that, it's because they are run by idiots.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#128

Post by VigUi7vv8G2 » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:48 AM UTC

lolilives wrote: post #111

mhartl wrote: post #9

There were a lot of questions about numbers such as guessing the next number in a sequence. There were some logic puzzles, the kind where you have to figure out that it’s the baker who rides a bicycle and the mechanic who lives in the house with a red door. There were some strange questions where she was given a sketch of a three dimensional figure such as a cube with some missing pieces, and she had to guess which s…

At risk of sounding like a sore loser, IQ tests, whether or not they are bias, are not a good indicator of success (in fact, I'd question it's ability to measure "intelligence" or "potential"). Scoring well on an IQ test does not mean you will be successful at your job. It does not measure your willingness to learn. It does not measure your ability to retain information. It does not measure your reception to criticis…

There are lots of people with high IQs who have ADD type issues.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#129

Post by einhverfr » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:53 AM UTC

Fascinating article. I am reminded of things my grandmother said about breaking into the field of physics (and later really helping greatly expand the field of astrophysics). I am also reminded of women complaining about the problems with trying to raise a family and get tenure as science professors today, and conclude that in many ways my grandmother had it easy.

So it sounds like Gwen's experience wasn't unique. It may be that we are actually becoming more rather than less hostile towards women breaking into male-dominated industries.

Re: A Woman’s Story

#130

Post by gwern » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 1:53 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #74

kahirsch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because in the past, the IQ tests were not fair, objective and colour-blind, but were set up in such a way as to bias against poorer people (which will be mostly black in the USA). This isn't true at all. They haven't been shown to be biased, merely that blacks score lower. Extensive research has show that IQ tests have equal predictive power for blacks and whites. "Disparate impact" merely means that blacks…

"They haven't been shown to be biased" When I think about that question, I think about questions that would be harder for me (white caucasian) than somebody from another "race" or culture. That is easy: for example imagine selecting some kind of image puzzles involving kanjii symbols, or telling apart chinese faces. They are just images, right, so no bias? But it will be much more easy to tell them apart for somebody…

If you have the time, I'd be curious to know your answers to the following (95% confidence intervals if you want):

1. how many seconds did it take you to think up this refutation of IQ tests? 2. how many psychologist/psychometrician man-years do you estimate go into developing any particular IQ test like the RAPM or BOMAT? 3. what probability do you give that psychometricians have not also thought of your objection? 4. conditional on their thinking of it, what probability do you give that they have done nothing to cope with it? 5. how many seconds would it take you in Google or Wikipedia to find the real answers to 3 & 4? 6. how many seconds did it take you to write your comment?