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Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

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Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#511
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s not in writing, it ‘never happened’ - and even then, make sure you have a copy they can’t get at and know your odds of a successful prosecution under the law (and your ability and willingness to see it through). Because sometimes that will be required.

Prosecution for what? Business leaders (and employees) are allowed to change their course of action anytime. I would keep it anyway for your records, due to it helping your claim for unemployment benefits by establishing constructive dismissal as opposed to termination for cause. But it might not work even then.

For shitty companies, wage theft is a not uncommon scenario when things like this start to happen (as in the overall economic/industry shifts, not just RTO).

When changing direction results in actionable torts against employees, then employees are also entitled to be made whole (to some extent).

And I meant prosecution in the sense of ‘driving to an actual successful resolution including getting paid what you’re owed’ - which can be for breach of contract, illegal dismissal, constructive dismissal, etc.

There are a million ways for a company to fire someone without ‘firing’ them, which they’ll often use if they don’t want to pay out unemployment/owed vacation or the like. Many companies will target expensive employees first (age/seniority, expensive physical health issues, mental health problems, or they just think they ‘aren’t a team player’, or are harder to manager. etc.).

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#512
post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

[deleted]

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#513
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because they are actually struggling to admit deeper problems with the company culture and processes that they don't know how to solve, and so they're trying RTO to see if it fixes things.

You give them entirely too much credit. They were told by others (primarily Wall Street) that they are to do this. It provides them with three things: 1. Real estate holding investment increases. 2. Control. 3. Silent layoffs. There's no reason for RTO. None. They're doing it to save money and regain control of their workforce.

>1. Real estate holding investment increases.

Yup, our commercial real was essentially fully vacant. So they rolled out these silly blended schedules (literally just electronically sign in to the office by physically being there once a week, no time req). Now they can say, hey our office space is 90% utilized on a weekly basis! I think commercial real estate investors are going to see right through this charade, but maybe I'm overestimating them.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, as some companies are changing their remote work policies to be return-to-office, there seems to be a lot of resentment about this, and I don't really understand why. Remote work availability and pay were often much lower. Further, if you were in my company, you had HR and C-Levels saying "Remote work is here to stay and will never go away" early on and often. It wasn't until about a year in that they starte…

> remote work isn't working for us It is working out. I looked at a few financial statements for a few companies pushing RTO (Amazon and a couple of Wall Street firms). Granted, it wasn't comprehensive or scientific, but: They all made more money in 2022 than in 2019 (the last year before COVID). So I really do not see what the problem is.

See recent push for operating margins needing to be at arbitrarily high levels etc and companies facing activists investors groups this year.

It's not about making money. They need to make more of it, by pushing margin growth.

It's an absolute value extraction play from investment groups that hurts every company it touches.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#515
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, as some companies are changing their remote work policies to be return-to-office, there seems to be a lot of resentment about this, and I don't really understand why. Remote work availability and pay were often much lower. Further, if you were in my company, you had HR and C-Levels saying "Remote work is here to stay and will never go away" early on and often. It wasn't until about a year in that they starte…

That's because they are actually struggling to admit deeper problems with the company culture and processes that they don't know how to solve, and so they're trying RTO to see if it fixes things.

Another very common reason is a technique to achieve a passive-aggressive round of layoffs. Announce RTO, lose some employees, and you don't have to pay any severance or take the morale hit of letting people go.

I've even heard of companies reversing the RTO mandate after the desired number of employees have left. Or just not actually enforcing it and soft-pedaling the whole thing.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#516

> Conversely, if you let these assholes exert their power over you, you dehumanize yourself in submission. I normally like strong opinions even when I disagree with them. It is usually refreshing to hear people share their true feelings in an unfiltered way. This, on the other hand, feels bitter. It seems to be coming from a place of hate. By all means, stand up for yourself and your ideals. Sometimes you have to mak…

> This, on the other hand, feels bitter. It seems to be coming from a place of hate.

Does it bother you that someone may actually hate something?

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

I think the resentment comes from the assumption of: "We should just return to the status quo before..." If you look back at the history of work experiences, there were several old "status quos" that we no longer accept. We don't accept, manual labor for 60 or 80 hours a week. We don't accept an expectation of staying at one employer for your entire career and then retiring on a pension. But society evolves. Assuming…

>We don't accept an expectation of staying at one employer for your entire career and then retiring on a pension

I think that if private companies offered pension plans, reasonable raises and promotion paths, many people would accept it. I think the company hopping stuff is largely a response to the death of annual raises and internal promotions.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#518
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Remote work is here to stay and will never go away" early on and often. It wasn't until about a year in that they started changing their tune and gaslighting us with "we never said remote work was here to stay, where did you get such a silly idea?" Pretty much exactly this happened at my company. They started touting these new offices they got for a steal, but in the all-hands said "our company has never required…

If it’s not in writing, it ‘never happened’ - and even then, make sure you have a copy they can’t get at and know your odds of a successful prosecution under the law (and your ability and willingness to see it through). Because sometimes that will be required.

Generally[0] your contract references a living policy document covering the softer areas.

I see changes to these documents as similar to the change in T's & C's for any service I use; your continued use of the service denotes acceptance of the new terms. You're welcome to leave at any time.

Not sure what you can litigate against.

0: anecdotal from the past 15 years

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#519
post #312

This is a classic HN post that will get a lot of positive attention here playing into the HN cognitive bias zeitgeist, but I think is mostly bullshit. The market will settle it in the end, but at least for startups being colocated is a competitive advantage.

remote-first means hiring the best-fit people for your company at the time and them working precisely when they're ready to be productive, zero commute, zero overhead. good luck competing with that. source: 25 years and 8+ companies working remotely, and obliterating competitors stuck in the old ways.

Interesting that over those 25 years I can think of 1, maybe 2 start-ups that really succeeded being remote-first.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#520

Companies seem to be under the delusion that return-to-office mandates will increase productivity, and I think this is absolute nonsense. Return-to-office mandates will demoralize your workers and make them seek greener pastures. Workers will become less happy and loyal, and top talent will leave for employers that provide greater flexibility. Executives that mandate return-to-office are crippling their workforces in…

> If an engineer knows that they'll get a cut of the cost savings or profits of some project idea they have, then you can bet that many employees will take advantage of that to get valuable work done. I'm not so sure that this would work. The goal of your employer is to keep you working. If the workforce participates to much, you could run into the Tesla problem, a.k.a. your early employees become millionaires and st…

Did Tesla employees quit because they became millionaires, or because there was no further direct upside to their additional labor?

I explicitly mentioned profit sharing because that is different from simply owning stock in your company. Owning stock / options, although better than nothing, is not a meaningful incentive for most as the value of it is generally so far removed from your individual labor unless your company is just a handful of people (at which point your equity is useless unless there's a liquidation event in the future, which your employers can rob you of anytime by firing you before they vest or diluting it through further fundraising).

By profit sharing, I mean literally giving workers a cut of their direct contributions. This is how sales people get paid, and most sales people won't quit after making a few million if they can continue to make more millions in the same fashion by being directly compensated for the money they bring in. This is not analogous to a Tesla engineer in a massive corporation with thousand of employees finally getting exit liquidity on their stock options.

Of course it's harder to measure direct contribution of an engineer compared to a sales person, but I don't think that difficulty means that it's not worth trying. Of course for this to actually happen, employers would have to start trying this out and proving its success - which may be a tall order in a job market where employers already wield such enormous power.

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