Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#401

Post by DrScientist » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

ballenf wrote: post #107

Contusion3532 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think so. It's my belief that they often times leadership sees software engineers as cogs that can easily be replaced by another. They don't appreciate the years of institutional knowledge that experienced engineers have, vast productivity differences between workers, etc.

If certain members become known as being super important or valuable, management's response will more often be "fix this risk" not "great, let's reward that person". In the short term it will bring that person some degree of job security, but in the long term they are viewed as a threat to the org. It's the assembly line mindset -- if there's only one person who can operate the machine or build a part, remove the par…

Yep.

Though there is a difference between indispensable because of key knowledge acquisition & hoarding, and valuable because of the contribution.

If you are the former - yep you are creating a risk, if you are the latter then not in my view.

Remote working potentially increases the chances of knowledge hoarding - as there are less opportunities to mentor more junior colleagues.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#402

Post by Aaronstotle » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

Nothing in this article besides the authors feelings are used for why its BS.

Being in the office does have benefits (e.g. if you're a more junior employee or have trouble focusing at home)

Of course it has cons as well,it's up to an individual person whether or not the pros outweigh the cons

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#403

Post by willcipriano » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

"Stop drinking or I'll take the kids to my mothers house and file for divorce"

"I don't want to lose myself babe!"

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#404

Post by fullshark » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

tgma wrote: post #396

fullshark wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then perhaps we should be more honest about what the concern is and the requirements of our jobs. Employers are paying for you to be on call for 8 hours a day (minimum) not just for your output. You need to be responsive and attentive as part of your job, not complying immediately can result in demerits.

I have a friend who was quick to respond to Slack messages as he napped close to his phone most of the time while WFH, but in between the responses he did very little work. 100% true story. You make an interesting point. I think in the office, what you wrote is the unwritten rule and people understand it automatically. At home it needs to be explicitly written down and it appears the employer is particularly abusive…

I'm not surprised, part of the lessons of this great experiment imo is a lot of jobs aren't actually important and are just part of empire building efforts and HEADCOUNT. Real actual work gets done by a few people, and a lot of these organizations have absolutely no idea who those people are, in office or not.

Agreed on your last paragraph, no one wants to say that, and just making everyone RTO seems to be the less offensive way to accomplish the goal: control of an employee's time. The alternative that they will go with next is probably employee spyware, in fact I imagine it's already in use at many companies.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#405

Post by throwawayq3423 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #373

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

Relationships, be they personal, business, or otherwise, include dealbreakers. When a dealbreaker arises, there are two ways to handle it: unilaterally end the relation, or present it to the other party. The latter is an ultimatum, there's no way around that. Whether or not the ultimatum is reasonable depends entirely on the specifics, especially in the workplace, employers have expectations which they need to have m…

I think you are both right. An ultimatum can be a demand for someone to stop destructive behavior, but it's more often a demand to fall in line, with the idea that you are replaceable if you don't.

I think the latter is what OP referenced, if someone is telling you "it's my way or the highway" and they are OK with the highway option, you should listen. They are telling you exactly how much you are valued (or not), as well communicating that they feel they are in no uncertain terms above you.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#406

Post by reaperman » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

cdchn wrote: post #319

reaperman wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the company has no obligation to keep an employee working in a remote context that the company doesn't favor anymore. Some people who were hired in as permanent remote, now are being demanded to sell their homes and move to cities they’ve never been to before. Companies have no obligation to keep any USA-based employee working (other countries may have different laws), but some reasonable severance payouts would be…

Who is doing this precisely? I've heard a lot of people bemoan that they moved during the pandemic and now are being required to return to the office but I haven't heard of any instances where previously remote employees-- remote from BEFORE the pandemic-- are being required to move to central office locations.

Amazon[0], for one. But they're not the only ones -- it does happen occasionally, mostly when a company makes a blanket policy "no more remote work, everyone back to the office!" (which makes less sense for those employees who were never at any point in an office to begin with). The author of the linked article for this HN post wrote:

> I had been hired in 2019 for the cryptography team at a large tech company. I was hired as a 100% remote employee, with the understanding that I would work from my home in Florida. Then a pandemic started to happen (which continues to be a mass-disabling event despite what many politicians proclaim).

In the Re: Amazon article linked at the bottom of my post, the employee says:

> Now I'm being told I need to move to Seattle or switch teams, or I'm out of a job. I moved to this area 13 years ago. I own a house here. My partner has a career here. I've built a home here.

0: https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employee-leaving-over...

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#407

Post by J_Shelby_J » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

Something I never see mentioned is that business leadership is rarely just in it for the money. For some people, power over others isn't a responsibility. For some people, the power they feel from managing people is THE goal of work.

So yeah, of course corporate politicians want RTO. Exercising power in a WFH company, even when they still hold power over someones life, is an abstract, intellectual thing. But the people who need power, need it at an emotional, visceral level. They need those IRL interactions to satisfy their ID. It's gross, but it needs to be said because some people are sweet and naive to the nature of those who pursue power.

And even grosser, men specifically often pursue careers of power with an additional motivation: They get something out of their professional relationships with women that they can't get from their non-professional relationships with women. They can get this without breaking the law, upsetting HR, or even do something worthy of being canceled. I'm glad we live in an era where most of these sharks are afraid to prey, but throwing young people in a shark infested waters is still... well, quite a bit more than just bullshit. IMO, pandering to these mediocre monsters is morally indefensible. Especially accounting for the environmental impacts (doubling of personal co2 emissions.)

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#408

Post by BadCookie » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

Contusion3532 wrote: post #16

ramon156 wrote: post #6

This post both says "I was most important at the company" And "I was easily dismissed". Can a CEO really be that disconnected from their company?

I think so. It's my belief that they often times leadership sees software engineers as cogs that can easily be replaced by another. They don't appreciate the years of institutional knowledge that experienced engineers have, vast productivity differences between workers, etc.

Yeah. The other day, I asked a clarifying question that led to a long email chain among non-technical employees. Of course, the various VPs refer to each other by name, but when the resulting email chain got forwarded to me, I see that I was referred to merely as "the dev." It really hammered home for me that these people will never see me as their equal. I am just a nameless, fungible "resource" despite my decade+ of experience.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#409

Post by hattmall » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

KoolKat23 wrote: post #244

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

Times change and so should companies. It's also not unreasonable for people to expect more from their job than a simple transaction. Before COVID, most places operated without tools such as Microsoft Teams and an assumption that remote work is untested and unproven to work in their setting. This is now not the case, and people are rightly questioning why a return is necessary. They've proven they can make it work and…

>They've proven they can make it work and that they know what works

If that were the case there wouldn't be a push to return to the office. There is a difference between making it through an event like COVID vs making forward business progress. Certainly there's a place for remote work but the higher you go in management the more you see the holes remote work creates. Realistically, employees should push hard for return to office and then no work out of the office. The reality is that as the job market tightens the expectation is going to be in office AND work from home. Vacation days will morph into work from home days. An expectation to answer emails after hours is already turning into an expectation to be online and available for zoom calls much later than normal working hours.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#410

Post by snotrockets » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #352

cableshaft wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Remote work is here to stay and will never go away" early on and often. It wasn't until about a year in that they started changing their tune and gaslighting us with "we never said remote work was here to stay, where did you get such a silly idea?" Pretty much exactly this happened at my company. They started touting these new offices they got for a steal, but in the all-hands said "our company has never required…

If it’s not in writing, it ‘never happened’ - and even then, make sure you have a copy they can’t get at and know your odds of a successful prosecution under the law (and your ability and willingness to see it through). Because sometimes that will be required.

Oh, they put it in writing. Then they wrote something else.