Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#251

Post by cmeacham98 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

Firstly, you make switching employers sound like as easy as changing your outfit. Not every job has thousands of companies hiring remotely ready to go.

Secondly, companies that pulled this bait and switch deserve to be called out and loose reputation among workers for it. My current employer had recruiters and even the CEO bragging about our remote work policy, just to pull it out from under everyone.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#252

Post by Arainach » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

>We should just return to the status quo before COVID

The status quo was horribly broken, and it took a worldwide pandemic for many people to realize that things could be different and didn't have to be so awful.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#253

Post by alex_lav » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #217

paulddraper wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

Well, yes. Advice given to address one circumstance often does not apply in another, wholly different circumstance.

But...the advice is about ultimatums...

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#254

Post by jcims » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Yep. Remote work since 2002.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#255

Post by mshron » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

shortcake27 wrote: post #112

grumblingdev wrote: post #20

Video conf still sucks. It's literally the same as 10 years ago. Does anyone have a workplace where it is really seamless, high resolution, and just works? Or is using any of these new technologies? Maybe VR will help... But not being in-person for collaboration/morale is miles apart. I wonder if employees would personally cover the cost of a one week meetup once per month if their other option was move city and offi…

My issue with every piece of commercial software I’ve used is the lag. Slack, Google Meet, Zoom… All have noticeable delay which make conversation unnatural and painful. I’ve been using FaceTime Audio to communicate with family on the other side of the world and it’s incredible. Zero latency and great audio quality. It’s an extremely underrated piece of tech. Not sure about FaceTime video as I’ve never used it, but I…

I can't speak for FaceTime, but I've found much better success with all of these platforms if everyone in the meeting is wearing headphones. A lot of the latency is from echo cancellation, and that turns off if there's no echo.

At my last company, I let everyone on my team expense comfortable headphones with a boom mic, and it made a huge difference on Google Meet. I've found Zoom to be similar. I can't speak to Slack's latency issues.

I'm also a big fan of Tuple[0] (the pair coding app) for extremely low latency screen sharing / pair coding and that was a huge advantage too.

[0] https://www.tuple.app

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#256

Post by dheera » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #90

x86x87 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only about before pandemic remote workers. Once people enjoyed the flexibility they aren't going back.

I enjoyed the flexibility of WFH but I still prefer working with local teams in the office. There are pros and cons to both, but it's silly to assume everyone has the same preference as you just because your preference is strongly held. This is my response to both your comment and TFA. There is less consensus on this topic than the very-vocal WFH crowd would have you believe. I know plenty of other talented engineers…

It's much more multi-faceted than this.

I enjoy going to the office from time to time, and if you establish no rules, I'm pretty likely to go to the office about 2-3X per week and coordinate those days with others, because I'm also a social human being.

I also enjoy being able to see my partner for a week here and there. Some have a "4 week work-from-anywhere policy", but if you're in an LDR you know 4 weeks per year is really not enough.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#257

Post by madmads » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #166

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

I think it's assumed that it's within reason and in situations where the ultimatum has the purpose of pushing you into a situation you would prefer not to be in. The WoW example is an example of dysfunctional behavior and the HR example is a routine process and not unexpected from the recipient nor is the cost of filling it in extreme. Your examples don't apply and it should be obvious why.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#258

Post by TerrifiedMouse » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #192

hotnfresh wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chat’s my favorite. Leaves a record so you don’t have to take notes or immediately record whatever you talked about so you don’t forget. Screen sharing or pairing are better remote than in person. In person’s good for a subset of types of meetings that some folks may find themselves in a lot. Brainstorming, product ideation, that kind of thing. > In the office I just walk over to their desk. This is from the perspect…

You seem to have missed my point that all of those options require someone to actually be at their workstation and available. With WFH, half the time people aren't. In the office they are. If WFH is going to be the future, then there should be uptime requirements with associated penalties so that someone is as available as they would be in the office. Software development is a team sport, you don't get to walk off th…

> require someone to actually be at their workstation and available.

No guarantee people will be at their office desk either to be frank. They could be hiding in the toilet, loitering at the water cooler, out on smoke break, getting coffee, ... etc.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#259

Post by whywhywhywhy » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

I don't see what the issue is, if you don't want to return to office you're welcome to work elsewhere that is fine with remote. The people who want to work in person can do so and be happy and you can work remote and be happy.

It's weird to demand from your employer when you're in control of where you work.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#260

Post by tgma » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

fullshark wrote: post #198

tgma wrote: post #116

Remote "work" is fine (with pros and cons). The problem is lots of people don't "work" remotely. Also, inevitably remote/async work flips the priority such that employee would be much more responsive to interrupts/errands of their own life than to focus their full attention on the employer's concerns.

What's the problem if they get the tasks required of them done? A lot of employers don't want just that, they want a control of the employee's time. Remote means they might not respond to that urgent request immediately like they need to in a face to face conversation. I believe that is the main thing that is so disturbing to these employers that lament remote work, not that productivity is affected.

> What's the problem if they get the tasks required of them done?

At least in Software Engineering, tasks are rarely that clear-cut and specific. Yes, as a remote employee you will have enough data to justify "I did what was expected of me," and the employer have no specific performance concerns, but at the same time, I posit that you would have likely done more stuff that was not particularly written handed down to you had you been in the office.

> they might not respond to that urgent request immediately

It is not just your boss that you'd respond to immediately if you were in office. It is also the random questions, code review requests, etc. from everyone else that would be prioritized and the other party would get unblocked much more quickly if done synchronously, which would lead to more work done across the team.