Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#31

Post by chmod600 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #11

Just a reminder, free public college was the norm for a long time, and many people benefited from it before turning around and working hard to dismantle it. It's not some foreign concept. It's very much apart of America's history. The question we need to ask is whether it's a better system now than it was in the past, and I don't see anyone arguing that it's better now.

Institutions on a small scale a long time ago are not easily comparable to institutions means to serve a much larger fraction of a much larger population.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#32

Post by hiAndrewQuinn » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #20

itg wrote: post #7

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

Agreed, and if anything what the author proposes would intensify the competition to get into those elite schools, for it would simultaneously increase the worth of a diploma from an elite school and devalue the diploma from the public college.

You could always make public colleges free, and also make the exams to get in actually hard.

That comes with its own suite of issues, of course.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#33

Post by esarbe » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

itg wrote: post #7

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

Seems to be a cultural issue in the USA, as this is not happening in Europe. Quite the contrary; going to private colleges is very widely perceived as a last-ditch way for rich kids with bad grades to get some paper at least.

I guess this in the USA this is an insider/outsider problem where "elite" school insiders prefer other "elite" insiders over other, potentially equally capable candidates.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#34

Post by latchkey » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:24 PM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #28

latchkey wrote: post #5

We've been prioritizing military spending over education for decades. I'd love to see even a bit of that swing the other way. I don't think taking a small amount from the military, by requiring them to optimize a few budgets, would be impactful on our nations security.

The US spends more on education than the military, it is difficult to defend the idea that spending on education has not been prioritized. Per the OECD, US spending per student is among the highest in the world by a large margin, which raises the question of value for the money already being spent -- any deficiencies compared to other countries aren't for lack of money. The US also spends a lot of money on the milita…

> The US spends more on education than the military

"The US spent $877 billion on military in 2022, a new report says — more than 10 times federal education spending"

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-defense-military-budget-c...

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#35

Post by RajT88 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:24 PM UTC

Ajay-p wrote: post #24

Even if college were free, I think limits on funding availability will actually make it harder for someone to get in because now they have to be selective. It might lead to less people going to college.

That's how it went in Germany.

Lots of people are redirected to trade programs. I'm definitely of the opinion that for a lot of folks, college doesn't really make sense. I would hazard a guess that also in Germany, lots of kids who might not be able to attend college are able to, because it is free.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#36

Post by monero-xmr » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:26 PM UTC

liotier wrote: post #27

monero-xmr wrote: post #4

Nothing is “free”. Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. It’s like immigration. If you say, “anyone who comes here can’t be kicked out and you instantly get access to healthcare, food stamps, and free housing” then your maximum payout is the entire planet and you are bankrupt once people realize this. For public college to be free, I want to limit access, like happens in Europe. Sure college can be free… t…

> Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. [..] It’s like immigration The costs of immigration are not hidden, nor are its benefits. Financially speaking and from the point of view of the state, immigrant are net negative in the first couple of years - and then they are net positive for the rest of their lives. Immigration exists because market demand for workforce exists... I always find hilarious that it is…

I’m an open borders guy but the “sanctuary city” I live in seemed to never consider the costs of such sanctuary.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#37

Post by piotrkaminski » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:26 PM UTC

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #20

itg wrote: post #7

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

Agreed, and if anything what the author proposes would intensify the competition to get into those elite schools, for it would simultaneously increase the worth of a diploma from an elite school and devalue the diploma from the public college.

> devalue the diploma from the public college

Huh? How so? If the only change is that you no longer need to pay for college, but otherwise admission standards and education quality remain the same, then why would the value of a diploma change? Unless the diploma was implicitly a signal for wealth, of course...

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#38

Post by ulrashida » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #28

latchkey wrote: post #5

We've been prioritizing military spending over education for decades. I'd love to see even a bit of that swing the other way. I don't think taking a small amount from the military, by requiring them to optimize a few budgets, would be impactful on our nations security.

The US spends more on education than the military, it is difficult to defend the idea that spending on education has not been prioritized. Per the OECD, US spending per student is among the highest in the world by a large margin, which raises the question of value for the money already being spent -- any deficiencies compared to other countries aren't for lack of money. The US also spends a lot of money on the milita…

Could you please support this statement: "The US spends more on education than the military"?

This view (https://www.usaspending.gov/explorer/agency) suggests Defense spending is $1.1 trillion in 2023 while Department of Education funding is $208 billion.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#39

Post by lesam » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

flashgordon wrote: post #30

itg wrote: post #7

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? Yes elite schools are still networking grounds. But wouldnt the hope be that if people who already came out of public schools weren't saddled with crippling debt, enough of them could pay it forward to the broader group than their own elite sc…

If you want to be a CEO, it's a lot better to network with the kids of all the CEO's than the kids of the dentists and middle managers, if you can arrange it.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#40

Post by RajT88 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

liotier wrote: post #27

monero-xmr wrote: post #4

Nothing is “free”. Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. It’s like immigration. If you say, “anyone who comes here can’t be kicked out and you instantly get access to healthcare, food stamps, and free housing” then your maximum payout is the entire planet and you are bankrupt once people realize this. For public college to be free, I want to limit access, like happens in Europe. Sure college can be free… t…

> Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. [..] It’s like immigration The costs of immigration are not hidden, nor are its benefits. Financially speaking and from the point of view of the state, immigrant are net negative in the first couple of years - and then they are net positive for the rest of their lives. Immigration exists because market demand for workforce exists... I always find hilarious that it is…

> I always find hilarious that it is the most free market advocates who tend to ignore that.

A lot of free market advocates don't seem to understand how markets work.

One of the main ways you grow an economy is to add people to it. You are adding jobs, by both creating labor supply and demand for goods and services. It's really very simple. The economy is made of people, stupid!