Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#121

Post by switchbak » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

throwaway290 wrote: post #13

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Been remote for 15 years, recently started full time job, love going to office. No strict work hours but I come anyway, nice to chat with colleagues (and much more productive than those tedious calls or text chats). Also I was already making myself leave home at least daily for physical activity, so if I'm out why not travel to the office? There's a nice coffeeshop near there. Also the chair is comfy enough, desk is…

Similar here, been doing part time remote since '06, full time since '11. There's ups and downs to both sides.

I get "more done" remotely, in that I can usually have more time for deep focus. But then it's harder to get high-bandwidth knowledge transfer sessions, and overhear when someone has some particularly bad ideas (or roads you've already been down, etc).

I think I still prefer the remote side, and it's probably a better deal for the biz, but I would like to spend a few days here and there with like minded people on shared problems.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#122

Post by throwaway9191aa » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #76

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #11

There are so many “habits” left over from industrial work. On an assembly line everyone needed to be in sync but this generally isn’t true for most office work. You need to be present at the factory to do the work, hasn’t been true for office work for awhile now. Yet we still operate synchronously. Everyone commutes through traffic/crowded public transport and risk catching the latest novel virus, to arrive at work a…

Walking over and talking to someone is still far superior to any online communication. So unless you have a job that requires minimal communication on a day-to-day basis, an office is superior for productivity. Perhaps if everyone working from home were constantly available to screen-share/video chat it wouldn't be as bad, but my experience with WFH is people get distracted by kids/pets/etc and half the time I wait h…

> Walking over and talking to someone is still far superior to any online communication.

The reason it isn't, for me, is that I'm usually answering questions about Why we do something, or How something is supposed to work. I'm usually giving a quick response, with a link to a design, or a code snippet, or a git commit, or a Code Review link, or something online. So I have to provide an online response whether you ask me in person or not.

If I'm in a 1:1, yea I totally agree I'd rather just talk about career growth and that stuff in person. But.... I mean now we are walking down the already-well-discussed path of Manager/IC and how these jobs are just different.

I don't know for sure, but I think this is the experience of many senior developers.

[edit] > I twiddled my thumbs waiting for the required SME to come online

I mean, this isn't an RTO discussion. If your SME is slacking off that is a different problem. Assuming best intentions, you would walk up to that SME's desk and there would already be 5 people waiting with a question because the SME can only talk to 1 person at a time.

I can slack with several different folks, so long as they can just wait a second while I type. The worst people (so sorry, there are some great TAMs) are the ones who page you as soon as they need something because they don't understand you are busy with a different project.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#123

Post by Ericson2314 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

SSJPython wrote: post #30

I don't understand why there can't be compromise on this? If you want to go to the office, go. If you want to work from home, then work from home. Why is it that remote workers never insist on everyone working from home, but RTO people want every single person to RTO? Just leave it up to the individual worker.

The point of being in the office is the other people being in the office. Unfortunate, but also true.

I totally by this might be a CEO power trip, but that doesn't also mean its an individualist ("I'm a star IC nothing else matter") brain rot. Star ICs do not a functioning org make.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#124

Post by zamalek » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #9

ramon156 wrote: post #6

This post both says "I was most important at the company" And "I was easily dismissed". Can a CEO really be that disconnected from their company?

Not the CEO, because everybody is replaceable. Heck, even Steve Jobs was.

> everybody is replaceable

Usually at a higher cost:

1. Employees seek new employment in order to increase their compensation, usually for the same amount+type of work. The replacement will likely be negotiating higher than what the original employee achieved through regular promotions and pay raises.

2. Software - and many other cognitive industries - are not like an assembly line (another CEO fallacy). You can't just slot in a replacement and expect things to continue as normal. Deliverables will suffer, either through quality or expediency.

You might also find it difficult to find a replacement that is as talented as the employee you lost. Someone calling your ultimatum means that they are confident in their ability to get re-hired (or in this case didn't struggle to get re-hired while they towed the line). Oops, you just lost rare talent.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#125

Post by bloopernova » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

WFH:

No commute.

Disabled people can work.

Less micro plastics in the environment from car tires.

Potentially lower greenhouse emissions.

No office means no costs from rent, heating/cooling, cleaning, furniture, etc etc.

Spending time around your family. (Although on that last one, I really dislike kids screaming in the background of conference calls)

Edited to add: I wonder how to compare energy usage or emissions? You have less road and office use, but more home use.

I'm puzzled by the people in this thread that seem to be saying "everyone must RTO because I want to". It's great that you personally want to work in an office and I wish you every success, but why drag people to the office if they want to work from home?

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#126

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

SSJPython wrote: post #30

I don't understand why there can't be compromise on this? If you want to go to the office, go. If you want to work from home, then work from home. Why is it that remote workers never insist on everyone working from home, but RTO people want every single person to RTO? Just leave it up to the individual worker.

You don’t think there can be compromise until both sides admit their faults.

Count the times you see someone arguing WFH while admitting any degree of abuse like we all know it is.

To hear people here tell it, they would never do the things we all know happen.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#127

Post by hotnfresh » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #76

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #11

There are so many “habits” left over from industrial work. On an assembly line everyone needed to be in sync but this generally isn’t true for most office work. You need to be present at the factory to do the work, hasn’t been true for office work for awhile now. Yet we still operate synchronously. Everyone commutes through traffic/crowded public transport and risk catching the latest novel virus, to arrive at work a…

Walking over and talking to someone is still far superior to any online communication. So unless you have a job that requires minimal communication on a day-to-day basis, an office is superior for productivity. Perhaps if everyone working from home were constantly available to screen-share/video chat it wouldn't be as bad, but my experience with WFH is people get distracted by kids/pets/etc and half the time I wait h…

Chat’s my favorite. Leaves a record so you don’t have to take notes or immediately record whatever you talked about so you don’t forget.

Screen sharing or pairing are better remote than in person.

In person’s good for a subset of types of meetings that some folks may find themselves in a lot. Brainstorming, product ideation, that kind of thing.

> In the office I just walk over to their desk. This is from the perspective of an engineer by the way, I'm not management.

One of the best things about WFH is this doesn’t happen.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#128

Post by soulofmischief » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #75

x86x87 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only about before pandemic remote workers. Once people enjoyed the flexibility they aren't going back.

Some or many people are just as productive working from home, but also many are not and are more productive in an office environment. There need to be better more reliable ways of measuring this and affording those who are able to be productive while remote the option. Those who aren’t as productive WFH don’t get the choice.

Tying my ability to work remotely, and thus plan and live my life accordingly, to some kind of arbitrary performance mechanism installed by Initech's latest up-and-coming executive star, will result in me immediately leaving. I have the skill to back that statement, but I won't employ it just so that some patronizing manager can get a kick out of it.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#129

Post by afavour » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #90

x86x87 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only about before pandemic remote workers. Once people enjoyed the flexibility they aren't going back.

I enjoyed the flexibility of WFH but I still prefer working with local teams in the office. There are pros and cons to both, but it's silly to assume everyone has the same preference as you just because your preference is strongly held. This is my response to both your comment and TFA. There is less consensus on this topic than the very-vocal WFH crowd would have you believe. I know plenty of other talented engineers…

> silly to assume everyone has the same preference

I don't see the OP assuming that. Not everyone enjoyed it but for those of use who did going back is not desirable.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#130

Post by boring_twenties » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

SSJPython wrote: post #30

I don't understand why there can't be compromise on this? If you want to go to the office, go. If you want to work from home, then work from home. Why is it that remote workers never insist on everyone working from home, but RTO people want every single person to RTO? Just leave it up to the individual worker.

RTO people don't want to be in an empty office by themselves.