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12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

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Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#201

Post by svpk »

pachico wrote: post #198

Honest question. How do young-earth creationists react to these news? We don't have many in Spain, despite being quite a religious country, and I'm always intrigued.

Generally young earth creationists don’t believe modern dating methods are accurate. Explanations for why they wouldn’t be accurate vary. But as an example, in my understanding carbon dating is based on a presumption that atmospheric ratios of stable and unstable carbon isotopes have remained constant over time. But how do we know that to be true?

Generally the different kinds of dating methods are also calibrated against one another, so then you get a feedback loop of false conclusions verifying other false conclusions. And then of course you get various points of data that could contradict dating methods. One that was mentioned to me recently is that a plane was found buried under several hundred feet of ice. Presumably if it wasn’t obviously an object from the last century it would have been dated to be much older. So goes the argument.

Anyway, I’m not an expert on dating things or young earth creationism but the Tl;dr is that they don’t believe the dating method used to claim it’s 12,000 years old is accurate.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#202

Post by dsign »

hnbad wrote: post #160
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like it’s saying that Death is a wanker. I wonder if it was deliberately humorous, which would add another dimension. I know that the Incas had statues that were basically hardcore pr0n. I’m not sure the reason. Probably fertility stuff.

It's always funny to me how some people will go out of their way to avoid acknowledging that historical people may have liked sex or even been queer. My favorite example is that of two Roman men apparently living together as a household and having items with very graphic depictions of sexual acts between men. They were obviously two very heterosexual men (maybe brothers) and the depictions of men ravaging each other'…

:-)

It is said[^1] that the God of the Jews ravaged Pompeii because of polarized views on the matter of sexuality. A bit later, they won the war for the heart of Western culture. So, yes, those bros had those statues and depictions for the sake of fertility and sports, and our modern occidental brains[^2] will keep glitching when told otherwise.

[^1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP5MoLyWGw

[^2] In case you feel tempted to say those Western values have always been universal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus_paintings_in_Bhutan

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#203

Post by chrisco255 »

runsWphotons wrote: post #143
arp242 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venus of Willendorf is quite small, and not especially life-like, but similar large statues have been found in the area before, from around the same time (12kya ago). It's not even a unique find, and fits reasonably well(ish) in established chronology and progression (insofar that's possible for pre-history). Pretty much everything the previous poster said is wrong.

its not as lifelike as i hoped when i opened. not a Michelangelo.

The Lescaux cave paintings from 17K YA are remarkable. A prehistoric Sistine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qApjgI8Dbk8

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#205

Post by nyrikki »

matkoniecz wrote: post #199
Retric wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hunter gatherer’s had a lot of free time. Based on studies of the last hunter gather groups, in reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. That seems similar to us except we exclude tasks like commuting, grocery shopping, cooking, working out, cleaning dishes etc from what we consider ‘work’. Thus resulting in a lot more time for hobbies and sociali…

> In reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. on what you base this one? (from what I remember this time would not be even to even produce clothes - unless it is for area of world where no clothing is needed?)

There is a very large difference not being able to produce clothes and not finding clothing that happens to be preserved.

Currently the guesses are 40,000 to 3 million years ago.

These people in this article are just as intelligent as modern humans.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#206

Post by defrost »

matkoniecz wrote: post #199
Retric wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hunter gatherer’s had a lot of free time. Based on studies of the last hunter gather groups, in reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. That seems similar to us except we exclude tasks like commuting, grocery shopping, cooking, working out, cleaning dishes etc from what we consider ‘work’. Thus resulting in a lot more time for hobbies and sociali…

> In reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. on what you base this one? (from what I remember this time would not be even to even produce clothes - unless it is for area of world where no clothing is needed?)

There are rock art painting depicting details on ceremonial costumes that date back 18,000 years BP, so clothing goes back at least that far.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37733157

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#207

Post by [deleted] »

Retric wrote: post #191
maratc wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves. Sculptors today are stationary and they depend on money (a mark of a civilization) and tools (same) and supermarkets (same) and demand for their work (economic surplus; same). Leonardo da Vinci, if he was a part of hunter-gatherer society (which is mobile), would neither be able to paint nor invent, for he would be busy with gathering (…

Hunter gatherer’s had a lot of free time. Based on studies of the last hunter gather groups, in reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. That seems similar to us except we exclude tasks like commuting, grocery shopping, cooking, working out, cleaning dishes etc from what we consider ‘work’. Thus resulting in a lot more time for hobbies and sociali…

[deleted]

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#208

Post by tomek_ycomb »

Fluorescence wrote: post #164
bluehorizon2 wrote: post #102

It feels like the significance of this is lost on many people. My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. I think it’s supposed to be more like 6000 years ago. The fact that it has been carbon dated to 12,000 tears should means that we have to rewrite the theories on the start of human civilization. These statues needed to be carved out of tools and the edu…

Has the statue itself been dated? 12,000 yo is the estimated founding date of Göbekli Tepe not it's last use. Humans like to move things about go through many phases of inhabitation of a place. How is dating as a science faring in the replication crisis? It seems fraught with incentives for those involved. Discover something 2000 years old and no-one cares but 12,000 years old and you've got a TV career and a book de…

The incentives are that the person who discovered the previously oldest <12,000 island that defined their archeological site as the coolest site, tends to fight. That plus 3rd party dating and other solutions. Because sometimes there is not a lot to go off of for dating, I've also seen people complaining that samples aren't always shared. So it's not perfect for sure, but I'm noting there are still incentives in that system

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#209

Post by coldpie »

throwaway290 wrote: post #157
pakitan wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer > Researchers Gurven and Kaplan have estimated that around 57% of hunter-gatherers reach the age of 15. Of those that reach 15 years of age, 64% continue to live to or past the age of 45. This places the life expectancy between 21 and 37 years.[54] They further estimate that 70% of deaths are due to diseases of some kind, 20% of deaths come from violence or accidents and…

Karahan Tepe is not hunter gatherers, it's a permanent settlement. But even that aside, it is definitely not what the guy in video literally said, which is quote "their lifespans would have only been around 35 years", 5:22. By the way, I had to sit through 6 unskippable 10-second ads to tell you the timestamp (2 ads every time I scrub around). Edited for brevity

> By the way, I had to sit through 6 unskippable 10-second ads to tell you the timestamp (2 ads every time I scrub around).

Huh, does uBlock Origin not work for blocking ads on YouTube anymore?

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#210

Post by stainablesteel »

hnfong wrote: post #151
bluehorizon2 wrote: post #102

It feels like the significance of this is lost on many people. My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. I think it’s supposed to be more like 6000 years ago. The fact that it has been carbon dated to 12,000 tears should means that we have to rewrite the theories on the start of human civilization. These statues needed to be carved out of tools and the edu…

> My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. I think it’s supposed to be more like 6000 years ago. Recently I keep wondering whether people have thought about this from a statistical perspective. Like, if I suddenly find a dead rat in my kitchen, what should I think about it? Should I consider that maybe I have had a pest problem for months or possibly year…

this is a great analogy

its why i love graham hancock and everything he talks about, its so exciting to think about the great achievements of all the human civilizations that have come about in the 200-300k years that humans have been around

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