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12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

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Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#191

Post by Retric »

maratc wrote: post #183
p-e-w wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The statues, especially in the context of the greater site, could not be made by one person Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves. > they could not be themselves participating in hunter-gathering activities Why not? Hunting and gathering doesn't occupy all of a person's time. I see no reason whatsoever to assume that those sculptures weren't created by part-time artists. > i…

> Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves. Sculptors today are stationary and they depend on money (a mark of a civilization) and tools (same) and supermarkets (same) and demand for their work (economic surplus; same). Leonardo da Vinci, if he was a part of hunter-gatherer society (which is mobile), would neither be able to paint nor invent, for he would be busy with gathering (…

Hunter gatherer’s had a lot of free time. Based on studies of the last hunter gather groups, in reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. That seems similar to us except we exclude tasks like commuting, grocery shopping, cooking, working out, cleaning dishes etc from what we consider ‘work’. Thus resulting in a lot more time for hobbies and socializing.

They move around, but would return to the same locations regularly thus potentially spending years in one location over their lifetime. Plenty of time to make dozens of life sized statues.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#192

Post by bazoom42 »

blacklion wrote: post #184
bluehorizon2 wrote: post #102

It feels like the significance of this is lost on many people. My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. I think it’s supposed to be more like 6000 years ago. The fact that it has been carbon dated to 12,000 tears should means that we have to rewrite the theories on the start of human civilization. These statues needed to be carved out of tools and the edu…

It is very interesting, that you says about 6000 years ago. It is "calculated" (in the middle ages) age of The Great Flood. I've read some opinion, that modern European historians, even atheist ones, still "primed" by this number and it skews all our understanding of history and perception of archaeological finds. It is not some random number, but legacy of pre-Renaissance Biblical studies, haunting us to these moder…

What moderne European historians are you talking about?

We know of cities 9000 years old.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#194

Post by mcphage »

bluehorizon2 wrote: post #102

It feels like the significance of this is lost on many people. My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. I think it’s supposed to be more like 6000 years ago. The fact that it has been carbon dated to 12,000 tears should means that we have to rewrite the theories on the start of human civilization. These statues needed to be carved out of tools and the edu…

> My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago.

Your understanding is not correct.

> The fact that it has been carbon dated to 12,000 tears should means that we have to rewrite the theories on the start of human civilization.

It does not. Göbekli Tepe has in general, but I don't think this specific find does.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#195

Post by boffinAudio »

detourdog wrote: post #167
boffinAudio wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a theory that they were not intentionally buried after all, but rather that the deposits were the result of geological processes .. apparently they've found arrowheads in the deposit layers that demonstrate that the filling material was deposited over hundreds, or even thousands, of years ..

That makes a lot more sense to me. Do you have a source for more info. I think that would imply a social collapse that could no longer maintain their infrastructure.

Both the Miniminuteman and "The Prehistory Guys" channels on Youtube have featured more details on an analysis of the covering layers of Goebekli Tepe - you might want to check those channels out for more details.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#197

Post by edgyquant »

bazoom42 wrote: post #174
permo-w wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

look, if you take the two things in isolation, then you may have a point. the Venus is certainly a more beautiful artistic piece but you're trying to argue that an 11cm tall figurine with no facial features is a civilisational achievement on par with a massive 'temple' complex full of metres-high sculptures, reliefs and symbols that would require significant societal organisation and advancement: protection, educatio…

Nobody is arguing that. You are wildly fighting strawmen. But the claim that “complex things like statues” were “not possible” is clearly BS.

No it isn’t, and a small figurine is specifically not a statue

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#199

Post by matkoniecz »

Retric wrote: post #191
maratc wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves. Sculptors today are stationary and they depend on money (a mark of a civilization) and tools (same) and supermarkets (same) and demand for their work (economic surplus; same). Leonardo da Vinci, if he was a part of hunter-gatherer society (which is mobile), would neither be able to paint nor invent, for he would be busy with gathering (…

Hunter gatherer’s had a lot of free time. Based on studies of the last hunter gather groups, in reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. That seems similar to us except we exclude tasks like commuting, grocery shopping, cooking, working out, cleaning dishes etc from what we consider ‘work’. Thus resulting in a lot more time for hobbies and sociali…

> In reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores.

on what you base this one? (from what I remember this time would not be even to even produce clothes - unless it is for area of world where no clothing is needed?)

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#200

Post by runsWphotons »

Fluorescence wrote: post #159
runsWphotons wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not as lifelike as i hoped when i opened. not a Michelangelo.

IMHO it's more interesting and a greater achievement than lifelike. To me it's an expression of fertile abundance that shows more intention, more imagination, more desire to communicate, more understanding of form and humanity than a straight depiction would.

i think it looks like what you would make if you werent as skilled, didnt have the right rock, or the tools that were as good as later sculptures. but its still neat.
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