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12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

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Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#181
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. Huh? The Venus of Willendorf[1] is twice as old, and to my eye displays a higher degree of artistry than the statue shown in the article. Several such Venus figurines have been found in central Europe. Compared to the intricacy of the Venus' limestone carving, the statue from the article looks downright crude. Th…

look, if you take the two things in isolation, then you may have a point. the Venus is certainly a more beautiful artistic piece but you're trying to argue that an 11cm tall figurine with no facial features is a civilisational achievement on par with a massive 'temple' complex full of metres-high sculptures, reliefs and symbols that would require significant societal organisation and advancement: protection, educatio…

> the Venus of Willendorf could indicate some of those things, but it equally could have just been made by one especially advanced human

Hundreds of such figurines have survived to the present day, so tens of thousands must have been produced. They used materials transported over 1000+ kilometers. Clearly, those were made by a large-scale network of artists learning from one another, part of a pan-European culture – not by a random genius doodling around, otherwise they wouldn't be so similar to each other.

It's also pretty obvious from looking at the figurine that this wasn't the artist's first work. They probably had to make hundreds such statuettes before achieving this level of detail, so they were likely at least part-time professionals.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#182
post #93

Is there some way that we could "scan the Earth" to find other long-buried sites like Göbeklitepe? Would it be possible to do something from imaging satellites — something akin to ground-penetrating radar / laser range-finding / ultrasound — that might not be good enough for much, but which would be "just good enough" to find any other gigantic cities with walls built of dense stone, hidden under 10-50ft of dirt or s…

> Is there some way that we could "scan the Earth" to find other long-buried sites like Göbeklitepe? The Brits had started a Lidar survey of most of their country a few years ago, I'd say 2015-2016, but I'm not sure if that information is entirely accurate and, if it is accurate, I'm not sure how far they have got with it (what if all the cuts made to spending money on stuff that is not seen as essential).

https://environmentagency.blog.gov.uk/2015/09/18/laser-surve...

Browsable map: https://houseprices.io/lab/lidar/map?ref=TQ7237355141

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#183
post #178
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I think you might be missing is that Venus could be a pet project of a single person, done in their free time over some period. The statues, especially in the context of the greater site, could not be made by one person — many people should be working there for quite a long period of time, while physically staying in the place. Since they were working on the temple complex, (a) they could not be themselves parti…

> The statues, especially in the context of the greater site, could not be made by one person Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves. > they could not be themselves participating in hunter-gathering activities Why not? Hunting and gathering doesn't occupy all of a person's time. I see no reason whatsoever to assume that those sculptures weren't created by part-time artists. > i…

> Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves.

Sculptors today are stationary and they depend on money (a mark of a civilization) and tools (same) and supermarkets (same) and demand for their work (economic surplus; same). Leonardo da Vinci, if he was a part of hunter-gatherer society (which is mobile), would neither be able to paint nor invent, for he would be busy with gathering (or growing, or hunting) his own food most of his time; he would also not have access to paper or canvas or colors or brushes.

> I see no reason whatsoever to assume that those sculptures weren't created by part-time artists.

As mentioned, hunter-gatherers are mobile at least part-time, because they go from where some food grows today, to where some other food roams tomorrow, to where yet other food swims the day after.

> Social structure exists even in apes

And bees, and ants; but not the kind that allows a big part of a society (capable adults) to engage in activities that are not directly related to gathering food, growing children, or fighting, but creating temples and art. A group of hunter-gatherers can provide for themselves, their children, and maybe their elders or sick (as long as these are mobile). They can even accommodate a leader or a shaman here and there; but not an apparently big group of able adults that do not hunt and do not gather and do not fight and do not move but rather sit in one place and build a temple and statues.

> there is nothing substantially new in this archeological find

Gobekli Tepe have completely changed our view of the development of the human societies, as we have previously believed the first civilization (Sumerians) to be as recent as 5,000-4,000 BCE (or 6-7 kya). This hints at a civilization twice as old as previously believed.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#184

It feels like the significance of this is lost on many people. My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. I think it’s supposed to be more like 6000 years ago. The fact that it has been carbon dated to 12,000 tears should means that we have to rewrite the theories on the start of human civilization. These statues needed to be carved out of tools and the edu…

It is very interesting, that you says about 6000 years ago. It is "calculated" (in the middle ages) age of The Great Flood.

I've read some opinion, that modern European historians, even atheist ones, still "primed" by this number and it skews all our understanding of history and perception of archaeological finds. It is not some random number, but legacy of pre-Renaissance Biblical studies, haunting us to these modern times.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#185

What a crazy week for old things discovered this statue at Göbekli Tepe and the 400,000 year-old notched lumber beams in Zambia. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66846772

> And the timber is much older than the earliest modern human - or Homo sapiens - fossils, which are about 315,000 years old.

this is what astonished me. I somehow depicted our ancestors or relatives to be purely hunter/gatherers without the means (and will) to build complex wooden structures.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#186
post #168
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago. Huh? The Venus of Willendorf[1] is twice as old, and to my eye displays a higher degree of artistry than the statue shown in the article. Several such Venus figurines have been found in central Europe. Compared to the intricacy of the Venus' limestone carving, the statue from the article looks downright crude. Th…

What I think you might be missing is that Venus could be a pet project of a single person, done in their free time over some period. The statues, especially in the context of the greater site, could not be made by one person — many people should be working there for quite a long period of time, while physically staying in the place. Since they were working on the temple complex, (a) they could not be themselves parti…

The artist had a vision to build a human like figurine and that one day, future beings would debate its origin on some magic communication system.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#187
post #66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that time there is relatively little figurative art of humans. Rarely seen in cave painting, etc. The nearest would be the Venus figurines but they don't typically show facial features or internal anatomical details. It's a major major find bro.

I suspect it’s more a problem about longevity of the artifacts, rather than lack of talent or knowing one can pick up some mud and form a shape. They had very similar general intelligence and talents as us, at that time, and tens of thousand of years before. Today, it’s not terribly hard to find artistic kids who can mold extremely good faces, ponies, or whatever else they choose, from a lump of play dough. I assume…

A statistical review would show that you are almost certainly quite incorrect.

Also, the "they" you refer to is "us".

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#188
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does carbon dating work on a statue? Wouldn't it be dating the underlying material (i.e. the stone), which presumably predates the actual carving of the statue out of that material? Edit: I guess if it was buried, they date the organic material around it.

> How does carbon dating work on a statue? It doesn't, and the stone itself is typically hundreds of millions or even billions of years old. However, many ancient artifacts are found buried in the ground, and it is often possible to carbon-date organic material in the soil surrounding the artifact, which produces an estimate for when it was buried. This is typically combined with historians' estimates for when the cu…

In some cases you can also use luminescence dating[0], which can tell you the last time a mineral was exposed to sunlight.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminescence_dating

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#189
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, Narwala Gabarnmang pretty much blows every precept about the rise of humankind out of the water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabarnmung The birthplace of masonry .. the worlds oldest, longest-running university .. its oldest (still functioning) commons ..

>The birthplace of masonry .. the worlds oldest, longest-running university .. its oldest commons .. Pardon my ignorance - what separates this from other sites like Lascaux?

Literally, 10's of thousands of years.

Gabarnmang is older, and has been continuously occupied and in use, with only a break in occupation on the order of 50 years, last century, when it was "forgotten about" by the caretakers, in order to protect it ... only to be re-discovered recently (this century).

It is a truly extraordinary site and I personally consider it the holiest of all human sites, ever. More holy than any other - in constant use as a school and commons, for 10's of thousands of years of human existence, containing an extraordinary collection of art, both ancient and contemporary ... probably one of the most important collections of human art, ever.

If Australians had any decency they'd immediately sever ties with the British and make this site the seat of their new sovereign - its that powerful a record of human civilization, imho.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#190
post #73
post #13

If you're interested in learning more about these incredible Turkish archaeological sites, I can't recommend the YouTube channel Miniminuteman [0] enough. Milo is extremely passionate about his field of study and makes highly entertaining and informative videos about archaeology and anthropology, including a recent series where he became the first real archaeologist ever to be allowed to film a documentary on-site at…

His shorts are hilarious too, he has some great mini-debunks of conspiracies.

And a multi hour debunk of ancient apocalypse.
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