12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed • Hacker News Board

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#71

Post by gumby » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 12:58 AM UTC

verbify wrote: post #50

wolverine876 wrote: post #40

> featuring a lifelike facial expression Notice that, although it was a completely alien culture in a very far away time, before agriculture and writing, we still know what a lifelike facial expression looks like. Many things vary from culture to culture. Facial expressions, at least many of them, are consistent across humanity. If someone stubs their toe or tastes something delicious, you'll know without words. Look…

How many of these universals are shared with other mammals (especially apes)?

I don't think any other species has the set of facial muscles humans do. Cats seem inscrutable because they have very few; dogs seem more understandable because they can move their eyebrows.

I think the non-human animal with the most facial expressions is the chimpanzee, but even then it is much less expressive than a human in this regard.

Various mammals have (non-facial) macroexpression somewhat similar to humans, such as excitement, curiosity and fear. Many non-mammals such as birds, fish, and some reptiles can express fear to some extent.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#72

Post by jamiek88 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:02 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #71

verbify wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of these universals are shared with other mammals (especially apes)?

I don't think any other species has the set of facial muscles humans do. Cats seem inscrutable because they have very few; dogs seem more understandable because they can move their eyebrows. I think the non-human animal with the most facial expressions is the chimpanzee, but even then it is much less expressive than a human in this regard. Various mammals have (non-facial) macroexpression somewhat similar to humans,…

I think we share a very similar disgust response to other primates primarily and some other mammals as well including dogs.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#73

Post by jpsouth » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:04 AM UTC

mkaic wrote: post #13

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Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#74

Post by dwd » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:05 AM UTC

mcpackieh wrote: post #49

pelorat wrote: post #4

That's not what I consider a "realistic human statue" ?

Can you think of any artistic depiction of a human from that era that is more detailed? Humans in cave paintings are basically stick men.

Stick figure cave paintings are paleolithic graffiti. If you think artists find it hard to scratch a living these days, you're not going to find much support for following your passion when there is hunting, gathering and defending against predators to do.

But if a sharman (assuming it is a statue for their deity) has the time, then there's no reason it couldn't be perfectly proportioned. It's not like hand-eye coordination has suddenly evolved; it would more be access to better tools than a piece of flint to bang on some softer rock.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#75

Post by voldacar » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:07 AM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #25

INTPenis wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I was expecting something like a greek statue with very realistic human features, but I guess this is still astounding since other statues of the time are even less anthropomorphous.

We have a fairly good idea of how sculpture evolved in the past 5,000 years or so. By 2500 BCE, the Egyptians had already mastered realistic sculpture: https://www.mfa.org/gallery/masterpieces-of-egyptian-sculptu... But this discovery is a whopping 7,500 years older. It would have been inconceivably ancient to the pyramid builders too.

Those statues clearly show some development, but I wouldn't say the Egyptians had mastered realistic sculpture. There is clearly still some kouros-like stylized anatomy here, especially visible in the standing figures. Compare to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polykleitos#/media/File:Doryph...

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#76

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:14 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #71

verbify wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of these universals are shared with other mammals (especially apes)?

I don't think any other species has the set of facial muscles humans do. Cats seem inscrutable because they have very few; dogs seem more understandable because they can move their eyebrows. I think the non-human animal with the most facial expressions is the chimpanzee, but even then it is much less expressive than a human in this regard. Various mammals have (non-facial) macroexpression somewhat similar to humans,…

I don't think cat faces are all that much less expressive than dog faces. They have a wide variety of facial expressions, including surprise, irritation/anger, happiness, playfulness, anxiety/fear, disgust, and so on - and that's not including at cat body language, especially tail movements.

Our cat has perfected the guilt-tripping innocent stare. She stands beside her food bowl looking almost blank. This somehow communicates a combination of infinite sadness and disappointment, blended with child-like hopefulness.

It's very effective.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#77

Post by theduder99 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:16 AM UTC

victor106 wrote: post #51

I am always curious to know how they determine the date of historical artifacts? Anyone here can throw some light?

whatever fits the agenda

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#78

Post by facialwipe » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:19 AM UTC

seneca wrote: post #43

silisili wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, didn't see that Zambia one, that's big news to me. Question - how can they prove that someone in more recent times didn't notch more ancient wood?

As I understand it, in that case it is by dating the age of the materials the wood in question was buried in. The minerals are dated using luminescence dating. That tells you when those particles were last exposed to sunlight.

I don’t trust any dating technique that requires the combustion of material.

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#79

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:20 AM UTC

verbify wrote: post #50

wolverine876 wrote: post #40

> featuring a lifelike facial expression Notice that, although it was a completely alien culture in a very far away time, before agriculture and writing, we still know what a lifelike facial expression looks like. Many things vary from culture to culture. Facial expressions, at least many of them, are consistent across humanity. If someone stubs their toe or tastes something delicious, you'll know without words. Look…

How many of these universals are shared with other mammals (especially apes)?

Some universals are certainly shared with other creatures, and it's not even restricted to mammals. From one article:

Take, for example, social facilitation or the notion that organisms tend to perform better on simple tasks in the presence of observers. Although disagreement about its innate origins exists (Do-Yeong and Junsu 2010), social facilitation has had supportive evidence in humans in a natural setting (Michaels et al. 1982), cockroaches (Zajonc et al. 1969), and macaques (Dindo et al. 2009).

(I don't know about facial expressions, though the fact that I don't know means little - I've just read a bit about it.)

There are other universals among non-human species, not shared with us, such as 100+ discovered for chimpanzees.

Source: Reza Ziai, "Cross-Cultural Universality". In Todd K Shackelford, Viviana A Weekes-Shackelford, eds. Encyclopedia of Evolutionary Psychological Science. Springer (2021)

Re: 12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed

#80

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 1:22 AM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #76

gumby wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any other species has the set of facial muscles humans do. Cats seem inscrutable because they have very few; dogs seem more understandable because they can move their eyebrows. I think the non-human animal with the most facial expressions is the chimpanzee, but even then it is much less expressive than a human in this regard. Various mammals have (non-facial) macroexpression somewhat similar to humans,…

I don't think cat faces are all that much less expressive than dog faces. They have a wide variety of facial expressions, including surprise, irritation/anger, happiness, playfulness, anxiety/fear, disgust, and so on - and that's not including at cat body language, especially tail movements. Our cat has perfected the guilt-tripping innocent stare. She stands beside her food bowl looking almost blank. This somehow com…

I suspect the most effective for pets is a perfect blank slate onto which the owner can project whatever they want.