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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#91

Post by mschuster91 »

scarface_74 wrote: post #85
mschuster91 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And guess why? Because ~3-ish years used to be what the SoC vendors provided as BSP support timeframe, and there was no mandate that they open up their specifications. Most don't even care about following the legal minimum aka provide the kernel and bootloader source code, especially not all these fly-by-night gongkai "brands".

So it’s what happens when hardware and software is not integrated…

No, it's what happens when there is no competition in the SoC vendor area. Apple and Samsung don't sell to external customers, NVIDIA doesn't do much with Tegra outside of the Switch and automotive, Broadcom doesn't do much in mobile SoCs (and from what the Raspberry Pi community learned hard, their chips are utter dogshit which is how RPi got started after all - they used surplus crap that Broadcom wasn't able to sell), which leaves Qualcomm as a sole supplier for the "high end" and Mediatek/Rockchip for bottom-of-the-barrel crap. There used to be Annapurna Labs as well, QNAP used their SoCs for a while, but I think they stopped selling to externals as well as they were bought up by Amazon and now only do Graviton which are Amazon exclusives.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#92

Post by osigurdson »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

In practice, what fines would hardware manufacturers be held liable for for any bugs in their specifications? How do we conclude that, yes, a hardware manufacturer hasn’t lived up to the regulation? Perhaps the operating system is “using it wrong”. Do governments have entire departments running tests on these devices?

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#93

Post by loup-vaillant »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #56
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

You'd have to define "hardware" in a rather interesting way for that to have any hope of working. Consider any sort of user-facing device (say, an electronic toy, or a music performance device, or for that matter, even a phone). These are all aggregates of hardware made by other companies. Yet they are also hardware. Being unable to develop such devices along with the firmware that runs them would make it more or les…

Let's say one wants to make hardware made of 3 pieces of hardware that talk to each other. They may need to write firmware to do that. At a first approximation, I would say one of the following should apply:

Either the firmware can be modified by the user, or remotely, in which case it should not be shipped.

Or it is an implementation detail of the communication between the 3 pieces of hardware, not reasonably modifiable without returning the whole thing to the factory, in which case that firmware is actually part of the 3-piece hardware, and can be shipped.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#94

Post by webmobdev »

Remember how old electrical appliances used to come with full circuit diagrams to help repair them? That's one way to go about this is - force hardware manufacturers to provide complete device and technical specification (e.g. https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/rp2040/rp2040-datasheet.p... (PDF)) for every hardware they manufacture. This should enable any competent system developers to create the drivers for it, for any software system. (After all, realistically, we cannot force hardware manufacturers to create drivers for every OS in the world).

One major objection we can expect is that sometimes hardware manufacturers deliberately cripple their products through their drivers. This enables them to sell a cheaper version, that is crippled, and a costlier one that isn't. One example of this is Intel and AMD manufacturing a quad-core processor, but selling the same processor as dual-core and quad-core (remember how AMD allowed you to "unlock" extra cores on their processors?). I think NVIDIA also limits some of their graphic card with their drivers, to sell the same hardware at different prices.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#95

Post by webmobdev »

scarface_74 wrote: post #68
vanviegen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Apple could have made this work across other platforms (Windows, Android, Linux), but chose not to. KDE Connect, for example, runs on quite a few platform, including all popular ones. https://kdeconnect.kde.org/download.html

Why should Apple be forced to write software for competing platforms?

It doesn't - it only needs to support open standards.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#96

Post by loup-vaillant »

unix_fan wrote: post #48
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

This would be terrible for specialized hardware, such as assistive technology. Open source software doesn’t really exist for it because there is simply no interest.

We could carve out exceptions for specific niches. Ugly, but could work.

Who says the software has to be open? It would be better for sure, but companies may be interested in selling software for assistive technologies.

Interest may go up if the barrier to entry lowers. Undocumented hardware is quite the turn off.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#97

Post by loup-vaillant »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #11
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

Sounds great - there’s just one problem: The desktop applications will still almost entirely be written for Windows. Or MacOS. Or Android. So yay, you can buy a device… and 99% of people will install the same OS on it that it would have originally come with anyway. What’s the point here? You’d have to say desktop apps must support all competing operating systems. But, hah, good luck with that.

The hope is that hardware interfaces harmonise to the point where writing a new OS becomes actually possible. Right now it's not, there simply is too much diversity, and that's before we talk about all the quirks in hardware APIs vendors currently hide under the software rug. Then maybe, just maybe, we could start some real competition on the OS space.

Even if that doesn't happen I would be happy with the end of vendor lock-in.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#98

Post by scarface_74 »

webmobdev wrote: post #95
scarface_74 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should Apple be forced to write software for competing platforms?

It doesn't - it only needs to support open standards.

So does that mean Apple can’t release anything until it goes through a standards body?

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#99

Post by scarface_74 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #91
scarface_74 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it’s what happens when hardware and software is not integrated…

No, it's what happens when there is no competition in the SoC vendor area. Apple and Samsung don't sell to external customers, NVIDIA doesn't do much with Tegra outside of the Switch and automotive, Broadcom doesn't do much in mobile SoCs (and from what the Raspberry Pi community learned hard, their chips are utter dogshit which is how RPi got started after all - they used surplus crap that Broadcom wasn't able to se…

And yet Apple uses Qualcomm chips and manages to update 10 year old phones.

It couldn’t possibly be your premise is flawed could it?

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#100

Post by smoldesu »

scarface_74 wrote: post #86
webmobdev wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone?* "Open Standards" - There is no reason that your Mac or iPhone should only work with other Apple products through closed and proprietary standards. With adoption of open standards, all devices (irrespective of their manufacturer) can offer a decent in…

Yeah and that works out well with Android and Bluetooth.

Yeah, it did. Your point?
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