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Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

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Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#61

Post by Nevermark »

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #60
ilyt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of these contractors operate with the mindset that customers will always be available and none of them will talk to each other or seek reference checks, but this approach suffers as the person’s reputation permeates their local industry. There are a few contractors in one niche I worked in where nearly everyone knows to avoid them, or at least to put strict oversight and micromanaging in place on thei…

It's a great working strategy purely due to information asymmetry, not because "markets"

I don’t share the viewpoint you are responding to, but information asymmetry is a significant factor in most transactions.

Rarely is being a more informed customer not a benefit.

Or being a less informed customer not associated with greater difficulty determining which supplier/service/product is the best fit.

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#62

Post by campbel »

hammock wrote: post #49
daneel_w wrote: post #12

For personal relations I will maintain that it's always better to be clear and give a straight yes or no. Nobody likes being left hanging in uncertainty, and nobody likes people who always do that to them - people who cannot even provide a "maybe" - when asked even simple questions.

In that case you ought to be reframing the problem, answering a different question that you are comfortable giving a definite yes or no too. For example, Them: “Will you do x thing for me by year end?” You: “Are you actually trying to solve y problem? What if I refer you to Z person by end of day? Or start by bringing you some research around X by end of month?” Tbh the same applies to business not just personal

this person collaborates

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#63

Post by NullPrefix »

FormerBandmate wrote: post #30
bluedino wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that how the big name consultants work? Price it out like you're getting experts from a famous firm and then send in a green team to do the work?

It's also how Saul Goodman works

Saul Goodman didn't outsource his lawyering. Having a paralegal secretary isn't the same as sending a green team

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#64

Post by NullPrefix »

xyzelement wrote: post #51

This is also why you should get multiple quotes for any transaction without an obvious and transparent market. When your roofer quotes you $XK to replace your shingles, that might be what he thinks is a competitive rate in your market, or it might be the "I am too busy but if they really want to pay that much I'll find a way to make it work" rate. A guy who's drowning in business and a guy who's sitting idle will lik…

>A guy who's drowning in business and a guy who's sitting idle will likely quote you very different rates

Yes, that's how it works. That's why no one goes out of their way to hire unemployed people

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#65

Post by ozim »

creer wrote: post #57
gumby wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commit to doing a good job, or at least a job that meets what you promise to the customer. Back when I did support and custom dev, our minimum price was $100K/year (back when $100K was a lot of money). Most of those contracts were fabulously profitable. But once in a while a bug would be reported that took five or even ten person-months to fix, scrambling all our other plans in the process. So what: we didn’t charge…

Exactly. A high price does not necessarily promise that you have the technical solution ready to go. There is such a thing as building an understanding with the client (even if the contract text itself is more conservative). That leads to a "relationship" with some level of solid grounds for it. As opposed to a common practive of throwing a one-off contract over the wall and merely praying that this will go well.

Unfortunately this has to be 2 way street, you might want to do it properly but a lot of customers don't want to invest time.

They want to have stuff done and move on so drop the money and you have to figure out how to do what they want.

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#66

Post by p3rls »

SoftTalker wrote: post #53
ilyt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just tell them that. "That is not the type of jobs we usually do, and if we did we'd have to use a lot of time to build competency in the problem and that would've costed you a lot. You'd be better off trying X or Y contractor, that's closer to their wheelhouse" And as a bonus you'd still be considered for future work that's not that rather than being filed under "those are those super expensive guys we can't…

A friend of mine who is a plumber said he tells people this all the time, basically "this is a pretty small job and not what we normally do. If I did it, I'd have to take one of my plumbers off of this big job we're in the middle of and charge you what that is costing me, here's the number of a handyman I know who can take care of that for you"

The plumbing company I work for charges $240 per truck for the first hour in labor and $160 after that. For those prices it's definitely worth trying to google it first.

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#68

Post by xyzelement »

NullPrefix wrote: post #64
xyzelement wrote: post #51

This is also why you should get multiple quotes for any transaction without an obvious and transparent market. When your roofer quotes you $XK to replace your shingles, that might be what he thinks is a competitive rate in your market, or it might be the "I am too busy but if they really want to pay that much I'll find a way to make it work" rate. A guy who's drowning in business and a guy who's sitting idle will lik…

>A guy who's drowning in business and a guy who's sitting idle will likely quote you very different rates Yes, that's how it works. That's why no one goes out of their way to hire unemployed people

// That's why no one goes out of their way to hire unemployed people

I don't know why someone would "go out of their way" to do that, but the numbers take care of it. For example, if I post a job at $XXXK per year, if XXX < FAANG salary, I would expect nobody from FAANG to apply, but I might get some "laid off from FAANG" candidates.

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#69

Post by Brian_K_White »

londons_explore wrote: post #5

Downside of this approach: Often you are quoting a super high price because you don't want the work and maybe it isn't really what you love to do or your expertise. But the buyer assumes you have a super high price because you're the best and can charge what you're worth. End result: The buyer is unhappy with your work, because you priced as if you were a world leading expert and actually you are learning on the job…

No one said to LIE.

It's the opposite.

You quote high to inform them honestly what it would take, rather than deciding for yourself what is really their choice not yours. Your choice is to not take a job if you just don't want to or can't of course, but is not to tell anyone else what they want or what it's worth to them to get it.

So as long as you don't mind doing the job fundamentally, but it's just a matter of resources or time or efficiency etc, (you're not being asked to do something you morally object to, or totally unrelated to the kind of work you want to do, or requires something like living on an oil rig for a year etc...) then you have no excuse to do anything but make your best guess at the honest estimate whatever that is however outlandish you think it is, including whatever no-promises cya terms you think should apply, and just tell them that. "It will be $200k, 4 months minimum, and you might get nothing in the end."

And part of that is also giving your best honest advice about what they should actually do, and your reasoning. Some other approach that you think is better, or recommendation how to find some other supplier who could do the approach they wanted "that will require rust and high availability, so you want to look for shops that specialize in rust and high availability...", whatever.

The end result is that they are the ones who decide not to do it rather than you. And if they go for it, well, considering you weren't bullshitting them but giving your honest best info, recommendation, and reasoning, you take it and do the job. If that means spending 2 months just learning a new system or language and throwing away a bunch of experiments just to get started, or hiring someone else to do some part you can't do, so be it. You put all that into the quote, and they said do it, so enjoy your big safe gig for the next while.

Re: Never say no, but rarely say yes (2011)

#70

Post by gumby »

ozim wrote: post #65
creer wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. A high price does not necessarily promise that you have the technical solution ready to go. There is such a thing as building an understanding with the client (even if the contract text itself is more conservative). That leads to a "relationship" with some level of solid grounds for it. As opposed to a common practive of throwing a one-off contract over the wall and merely praying that this will go well.

Unfortunately this has to be 2 way street, you might want to do it properly but a lot of customers don't want to invest time. They want to have stuff done and move on so drop the money and you have to figure out how to do what they want.

Those aren’t the customers you want.
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