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Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

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Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#241

Post by burkaman »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #205
whoknowsidont wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The positive externalities are even more enormous What do cars specifically positively provide? NOT including the positives that exists due to constructing infrastructure around that mode of transportation (artificial issues).

Mobility; unfortunately, the public transit infrastructure in the US isn't that great and the sprawl means that cars have become a necessity. Many areas simply can't be served efficiently by transit.

That isn't an externality, that's just the direct function of a car.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#242

Post by Etheryte »

burkaman wrote: post #238
nerdponx wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do tires shed more dust at higher speeds? I wonder if this has always been a known but unstated problem, or if increasing highway speeds are causing it to get worse.

Seems like it from a couple studies, for example: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896972... . Vehicle weight is also a significant factor, so EVs will make this particular problem worse. Still worth the tradeoff, but obviously not using a car at all is the best option.

Are you sure about the tradeoff bit? If my memory doesn't fail me, there was an article on HN recently that covered how EVs are environmentally more friendly, but health wise worse exactly because they generate more tire particles.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#243

Post by corethree »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #193
corethree wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

infra is not going to change in the US. Too much individual ownership at stake. For example I care about the environment but not enough to throw away a one million dollar suburban house for it. Basically to fix this problem is essentially to cause current suburban housing to depreciate in value until the property has become essentially worthless which is against much of the populations self interest as many people ow…

>>>Either way, this kind of thing has sort of already happened in Japan. Can you explain?

In japan most physical houses are worth more than the property they stand on. That's why real estate prices in japan constantly depreciate.

The only place where this isn't true are big urban cities like tokyo near really good locations.

See source: https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/popular-myt...

Nobody really talks about why there's this dichotomy between Japan in and the US. The reasoning is multifaceted. One of these things is infrastructure. Japan cities have extremely good infrastructure and are super clean. Living in Tokyo is close to living in a futuristic utopian cyberpunk society. So people know that the urban way of life is 100x better.

The Western US is centered around suburban life where everyone drives cars. Property is spread out and not much is invested in cities on the west coast. People don't see the value of city life as much. The east side of the US is more hybridized where rural and city properties are valued for different reasons.

Much of this dichotomy between countries is driven by lack of land in Japan and a lowering population. However this just pushes japan ahead of the curve. As energy becomes more and more expensive all economies will inevitably shift to becoming more like japan where suburban properties become more and more worthless.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#244

Post by burkaman »

Etheryte wrote: post #242
burkaman wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like it from a couple studies, for example: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896972... . Vehicle weight is also a significant factor, so EVs will make this particular problem worse. Still worth the tradeoff, but obviously not using a car at all is the best option.

Are you sure about the tradeoff bit? If my memory doesn't fail me, there was an article on HN recently that covered how EVs are environmentally more friendly, but health wise worse exactly because they generate more tire particles.

I'd be interested to see it, that's not an obvious conclusion to me. The health difference of an EV is a percentage increase in tire particles but a complete absence of tailpipe emissions. I would not expect tire particles to be the more significant factor, especially when the impacts of microplastics are so unknown.

Tailpipe emissions are a significant problem (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab35fc), and I know this is an extreme example but you can literally kill yourself by just leaving a car running in an enclosed space. EV tailpipe emissions are not fully replaced by electricity generation emissions, even if you get your power from 100% coal (and you don't). Power plants are much more efficient than internal combustion engines.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#245

Post by beowulfey »

mlsu wrote: post #166

Has anyone here ever lived near a freeway or even moderately busy road? I made the mistake of renting next to the freeway. Noise was perfectly tolerable, but I could not use my back porch, because after just a few weeks, everything had a fine coating of black dust. I could not keep my windows open in the summer. I was certainly breathing this vile shit the entire time I lived there. This doesn't surprise me in the le…

Same experience. I probably took a few years off my life with my year by a freeway in LA. So much black crap on everything.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#247

Post by bedobi »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #46
bedobi wrote: post #34

Typical hackernews to have threads full of well meaning but ultimately misguided people saying ah we have some technological solution for this. The solution to this problem and every other problem caused by driving is not driving . Period. Not driving doesn't require any new technology, it just requires getting serious about alternatives to driving. (safe, separated bike ways, ebike and micromobility subsidies, rail,…

In other words: you're proposing to replace a set of possible, if difficult, technological solutions, with an near-impossible social solution. I'd call that misguided. Technological solutions tend to be discussed because they can be implemented. Social solutions may work better, but only in imaginary la-la land where they can actually be put into practice. In the real world, you can't " just " get people to not drive…

> only in imaginary la-la land

sorry but this is laughable, you don't need to imagine lala-land or some alternate reality, large parts of the world do not have anywhere near the car dependency that north america does and they're fine. (in fact, they're more than fine, they're great, they're better off)

visit tokyo and see for yourself - a huge, sprawling city of 40 million, including many single family home areas, where much, much fewer people drive

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#248

Post by hgomersall »

suprfnk wrote: post #206
whoknowsidont wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The positive externalities are even more enormous What do cars specifically positively provide? NOT including the positives that exists due to constructing infrastructure around that mode of transportation (artificial issues).

Being by far the most convenient way to travel from home to pretty much any random location. Speaking from the Netherlands with a relatively good public transit system.

That's not an externality. That's what you pay for.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#249

Post by badtension »

mlsu wrote: post #166

Has anyone here ever lived near a freeway or even moderately busy road? I made the mistake of renting next to the freeway. Noise was perfectly tolerable, but I could not use my back porch, because after just a few weeks, everything had a fine coating of black dust. I could not keep my windows open in the summer. I was certainly breathing this vile shit the entire time I lived there. This doesn't surprise me in the le…

That's why so many people are cautious about "EVs to save us all", to put it mildly.

We are so focused on climate change and greenhouse gases that we do not see a lot of other issues and may exacerbate some of them in the process of decarbonisation.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#250

Post by bluedino »

mlsu wrote: post #166

Has anyone here ever lived near a freeway or even moderately busy road? I made the mistake of renting next to the freeway. Noise was perfectly tolerable, but I could not use my back porch, because after just a few weeks, everything had a fine coating of black dust. I could not keep my windows open in the summer. I was certainly breathing this vile shit the entire time I lived there. This doesn't surprise me in the le…

If you live next to a farm field, you get the same thing.

And at certain times of the year, the "dust" smells like manure.

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