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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#31

Post by gray_-_wolf »

askonomm wrote: post #13
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? Things like that are amazing and I'd never give up. And I'm sure most people wouldn't wa…

> Well that world would suck immensely

Maybe.

> Case in point

But this does not really support your statement no? What you described seems to me SW only functionality no? And if in requires any special HW (BT? I have no idea how it works under the hood), why does it need tight integration? I do not see a technical reason why Android and Windows could not provide the same feature out of the box, despite neither the Google nor Microsoft making the HW.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#32

Post by TacticalCoder »

> Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

> Why are these companies like intel, Razer, nvidia or AMD..

The question makes no sense. As one of the Reddit comment says: Intel and AMD are among the biggest contributors to the Linux kernel.

The real-world is pretty much powered by millions of Linux machines running on Intel or AMD hardware (for the most part). Try replacing that with Windows servers and their "working drivers" and then we talk.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#33

Post by mschuster91 »

noobermin wrote: post #27

I've swung over the last few years from thinking it's manufacturers' fault to realising that most of the fault here lies with the linux project itself. They're the ones who have normalised constant churn and thus needing to keep drivers for hardware, sometimes many years old, up to date year after year or even month after month. After seeing the churn mentality affect everything mainly spreading from web dev circles…

> I've only come to realise that blaming manufacturers for failing to keep up to date with a constantly moving target was totally unfair.

The intention of keeping the kernel moving and unstable at the inner layer is intentional: it is a negative incentive to make people at least publish documentation, if not outright publish driver source code, in the open.

The userspace-facing layer of Linux has remained very VERY stable over the decades, no matter the consequences [1].

[1] https://archive.fosdem.org/2016/schedule/event/design_linux_...

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#34

Post by delta_p_delta_x »

askonomm wrote: post #13
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? Things like that are amazing and I'd never give up. And I'm sure most people wouldn't wa…

> Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed?

I am guessing that AirDrop, Sidecar, etc have absolutely nothing to do with hardware-software integration, and have ≥ Layer 3 implementations. KDE Connect and Microsoft My Phone are competitors.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#35

Post by eep_social »

noobermin wrote: post #27

I've swung over the last few years from thinking it's manufacturers' fault to realising that most of the fault here lies with the linux project itself. They're the ones who have normalised constant churn and thus needing to keep drivers for hardware, sometimes many years old, up to date year after year or even month after month. After seeing the churn mentality affect everything mainly spreading from web dev circles…

Sorry but your claim is that Linux is the driver of churn?! That’s a wild thought.

Hard for me to imagine how Linux could be more responsible that the incentives of capitalism, eg planned obsolescence, the race to the bottom, and consumer demand for more and better cameras, storage, etc.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#37

Post by nextos »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #32

> Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux? > Why are these companies like intel, Razer, nvidia or AMD.. The question makes no sense. As one of the Reddit comment says: Intel and AMD are among the biggest contributors to the Linux kernel. The real-world is pretty much powered by millions of Linux machines running on Intel or AMD hardware (for the most part). Try replacing that with Wind…

What could work well is forcing manufacturers to release hardware documentation that is sufficiently detailed to allow developing drivers without reverse engineering.

Perhaps forcing them to do so a couple of years after hardware release, so that it does not interfere too much with trade secrets.

This would avoid perfectly functional hardware to go to the landfill because of no further software support, and it would also prevent incredibly time-consuming reverse engineering efforts.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#38

Post by cassianoleal »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #28
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

rather than "disallow vertical integration", start with "disallow lock-out". By all means, vertically integrate as much as you want but it should not be illegal for someone to take your hardware and use it for another purpose that you have no say in, or write and run software using your hardware without you having a say in that.

Yeah, someone on that Reddit thread said it right - force the companies to publish documentation for the interfaces. Let the hackers write the drivers without painful, slow and error-prone reverse engineering.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#39

Post by lnxg33k1 »

askonomm wrote: post #13
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? Things like that are amazing and I'd never give up. And I'm sure most people wouldn't wa…

Really your example serves as disproving your point, without the hardware walled garden there could be nothing to prevent apple to distribute the software to copy-paste from-to multiple devices

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#40

Post by noobermin »

eep_social wrote: post #35
noobermin wrote: post #27

I've swung over the last few years from thinking it's manufacturers' fault to realising that most of the fault here lies with the linux project itself. They're the ones who have normalised constant churn and thus needing to keep drivers for hardware, sometimes many years old, up to date year after year or even month after month. After seeing the churn mentality affect everything mainly spreading from web dev circles…

Sorry but your claim is that Linux is the driver of churn?! That’s a wild thought. Hard for me to imagine how Linux could be more responsible that the incentives of capitalism, eg planned obsolescence, the race to the bottom, and consumer demand for more and better cameras, storage, etc.

I didn't claim that it birthed it but that the same issue I see in the unsustainability in software today is literally the norm in the kernel. If it's bad in one domain, perhaps it's reasonable to question its value in the other.
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