Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics • Hacker News Board

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#171

Post by enragedcacti » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:08 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #159

hyperhopper wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not impossible, much of the world operates without 99.9% car usage like the USA. Every major European city metro area can be traversed without a car. Hell I went through 18 countries and 35+ cities in Europe without renting a car and only using a bus or plane maybe 4-5 times. This is an entirely self-made problem. A world not reliant on cars is not la-la land. It's a land where a car isn't treated as more import…

The USA is a lot more spread out than Europe. In places where it isn't (NYC, Chicago) you can get around without a car pretty well. Guess what, in small towns in Europe and in rural areas, most people have cars too, and they drive to get their groceries.

The northeast corridor is practically as dense as western Europe and we have a number of car-dependent cities denser than major transit-rich European cities.

> Guess what, in small towns in Europe and in rural areas, most people have cars too, and they drive to get their groceries.

That's fine! lets get our intra and intercity transit solved and small town people can keep doing what they've been doing.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#172

Post by c54 » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:09 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #165

Can someone explain why rubber - not a plastic - makes up the majority of plastic in the ocean? They do say "synthetic rubber", but from what I am reading those are also not considered a type of plastic. Not that the definition matters too much, but I think it's important not to use language that could be construed as being purposefully disingenuous to make an argument seem more dramatic, since doing so undermines th…

Synthetic rubber is a type of plastic

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#173

Post by noobermin » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:09 PM UTC

savanaly wrote: post #157

bedobi wrote: post #34

Typical hackernews to have threads full of well meaning but ultimately misguided people saying ah we have some technological solution for this. The solution to this problem and every other problem caused by driving is not driving . Period. Not driving doesn't require any new technology, it just requires getting serious about alternatives to driving. (safe, separated bike ways, ebike and micromobility subsidies, rail,…

No, the typical hackernews comment is yours. Take a very complicated issue, present your favored simple solution without evidence, then say "period" as if that somehow settles the issue.

This is backwards, social solutions are actually harder than a tech fix, because any tech fix won't be an actual fix. It will just be a band-aid that won't solve the underlying social issue.

Imagine, for example, thinking the solution to male loneliness or alternative patriarchy is just a better bumble/tinder. Social problems cannot be solved by better technology simply, the problem is much more complicated than that.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#174

Post by eep_social » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:09 PM UTC

nhumrich wrote: post #168

eep_social wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let’s please not require a government-approved mileage tracking device to make sure that each vehicle is charged it’s fair share. That’s one really nice property of gas taxes they will be hard to replace without going full dystopia, and there is a significant contingent that doesn’t give a shit about the privacy and security implications.

Every car already has a way to track its own mileage without requiring GPS

Not all states require periodic inspections. Who will be checking those odometers? Is it the honor system or are we requiring a third party inspection?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#175

Post by alt227 » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:09 PM UTC

kylebenzle wrote: post #21

chmod600 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chemically speaking, how is natural rubber different from plastic while still having such similar properties?

Great question! Its super simple, it is ONLY the length of the hydrocarbon chain, a better quality natural rubber has really long chains (10,000+ atoms long) that last a LONG time and are VERY stretchy. Synthetic rubber (or plastic) is shorter (1,000 atoms long) and doesn't last as long. Thats it, it is the exact same "product" just a chain that gets longer and longer and changes its physical properties as it grows.

Genuinely interested here. If natural rubber and plastic are exactly the same thing, then why is natural rubber being advocated as a much more environmentally sound alternative? Would'nt the dust from natural rubber tyres be just as problematic as the plastic is now?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#176

Post by yellow_postit » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:10 PM UTC

nhumrich wrote: post #168

eep_social wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let’s please not require a government-approved mileage tracking device to make sure that each vehicle is charged it’s fair share. That’s one really nice property of gas taxes they will be hard to replace without going full dystopia, and there is a significant contingent that doesn’t give a shit about the privacy and security implications.

Every car already has a way to track its own mileage without requiring GPS

Not every state has inspections. So the infrastructure to check/validate odometer readings is lacking.

Maybe some yearly assertion of mileage and random selection rate yearly would suffice.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#177

Post by seadan83 » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:11 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #127

kmeisthax wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automobile dependency is not a technological problem, it is a social problem. Enormous sums of money were spent on lobbying, laws, and infrastructure, all just to make driving tolerable . The cost of this social experiment was that walking was made miserable and dangerous. A century ago people were saying, "in the real world, you can't just get people to not walk". But they did. We coined the term "jaywalking" to ref…

“We” is not nearly as many as you may believe. I would say most people don’t want to give up their car. That’s why people spend so much time maintaining their cars, polishing them, buying nicer ones, etc. Some people want to give up their cars, but you need everyone to want this, and they don’t. A technical solution is more likely to work than a mass social upheaval.

The "we" clearly refers to society at large. (I suspect you read what you wanted to read)

> Some people want to give up their cars, but you need everyone to want this, and they don’t

This is moving the goal posts, nobody said everyone would want to make s transition and a requirement for this is a novel requirement only now introduced by your response.

The example is akin to: 30 people are currently driving to s grocery store 0.5 miles away. If the sidewalk to that store didn't end after 250 feet but actually went all the way, then 5 people would walk. If there were a bike lane, then 3 people would bike, if there were a decent bus, mird would ride, and finally if it were closer..

The line of logic given is basically, "because 100% of trips are done by car, nobody wants any alternative infrastructure, and suggesting that some people would use any alternative infrastructure is a war on cars."

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#178

Post by eep_social » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:11 PM UTC

wnoise wrote: post #169

eep_social wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let’s please not require a government-approved mileage tracking device to make sure that each vehicle is charged it’s fair share. That’s one really nice property of gas taxes they will be hard to replace without going full dystopia, and there is a significant contingent that doesn’t give a shit about the privacy and security implications.

A tire tax would also work, except for the unfortunate safety implications.

Yup. The second order effects are tricky. Gas tax was an elegant solution that will not be easy to replace.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#179

Post by morelisp » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:12 PM UTC

eep_social wrote: post #152

richjdsmith wrote: post #23

With the continued shift to EVs, petrol taxes just don't make sense as a form of taxation to pay for roads. I think we should be shifting entirely to a gross curb weight tax for all vehicles. The fourth power law states that the greater the axle load of a vehicle, the stress on the road caused by the motor vehicle increases in proportion to the fourth power of the axle load. Meaning heavier EVs cough hummer , are doi…

Just let’s please not require a government-approved mileage tracking device to make sure that each vehicle is charged it’s fair share. That’s one really nice property of gas taxes they will be hard to replace without going full dystopia, and there is a significant contingent that doesn’t give a shit about the privacy and security implications.

Yeah, my car should be tracked by its manufacturer, my cell carrier, my phone, the mapping software in my GPS, the four random apps I gave location permission to and forgot about, the traffic cameras, my neighbor's door cameras, but god forbid the government actually trying to reduce pollution by getting a raw distance number once a year.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#180

Post by baggy_trough » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

anlsh wrote: post #89

TeMPOraL wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words: you're proposing to replace a set of possible, if difficult, technological solutions, with an near-impossible social solution. I'd call that misguided. Technological solutions tend to be discussed because they can be implemented. Social solutions may work better, but only in imaginary la-la land where they can actually be put into practice. In the real world, you can't " just " get people to not drive…

Hah! Cars have been around for just a hundred years or so, and yet serious efforts to reduce our dependency on them are "near impossible." Talk about recency bias.

Would you say something similar about computers?