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We don't have senior engineers anymore

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91–100 of 127 posts

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#91
post #40

I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this one, but can we stop using the word engineer in the commercial software and startup sector entirely. It's mostly hacking, fucked up things that make you cry, turds smeared all over stuff, religious factions fighting over faith (marketing) arguments and embarrassing catwalk fashion show bullshit. None of that is engineering . I'm only here because for some insane fucked up reason,…

Yeah software engineering has even less rigor than the social sciences. The field is filled with cargo culted best practices which are supported by zero hard evidence. Software "engineering" is really closer to primitive superstition than science.

But what I take even more issue with is the conflation of "engineer" to be not just a software developer, but a web developer. E.g., this says you should understand how CSS and DOM work under the hood. But there are lots software domains where this knowledge is completely useless.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#92
post #60
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can definitely say that I am a mapper and not a packer. But I can also say that I am pretty much _all_ mapper and no packer. This means that it takes me forever to understand a lot of things that presumed packers (or more balanced individuals) would get in a jiffy. This is not intended as a humble brag! For the longest time on some projects I just don't f**ing get it, I start to feel dumb and in way: out of place.…

This is me as well. I’m not very good at memorizing things so I have to build a mental model of a system that I’m working in and extrapolate. It gives me a lot of anxiety to be in that trough before it clicks.

Very much so. I've gotten better at simply dealing with the fact that I don't undertand wtf I'm doing, and to just accept that at the outset. Now, this is in no way unique and I'm no snowflake. But there's a definite cost.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#93
Fortunately, this is a solved problem.

Professional Engineers and Architects in non-software fields require licensing. One can't legally give yourself those titles in other fields. You have to prove you have the map nailed down in your mind. And not just your map, but enough of all related design disciplines to reason about them effectively. This is done via extensive testing. In addition, the applicant must have several years of experience - documented and signed off by a senior licensed professional - before test results hold any weight. Once you obtain a license, you must continue to submit proof of continuing education to maintain it.

The skilled trades also to rely on testing and supervised experience. Training intensity and requirements at this level do vary a bit across the US, but anyone would still have had to work their a* of f to get there

In both the skilled trades and professional design, the correlation between licensing/trade rank and minimum expected capability of any given employee are strong enough that they can be used in spreadsheets to accurately estimate delivery schedules. Those who exceed minimums can expect to be given additional responsibility and compensation. If that expectation isn't met, the professional certification holds its value and may be reliably taken elsewhere for better compensation.

What isn't solved, however, is why designers in other disciplines aren't compensated at the same rate as unlicensed software professional

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#96
post #93

Fortunately, this is a solved problem. Professional Engineers and Architects in non-software fields require licensing. One can't legally give yourself those titles in other fields. You have to prove you have the map nailed down in your mind. And not just your map, but enough of all related design disciplines to reason about them effectively. This is done via extensive testing. In addition, the applicant must have sev…

Real engineering is about liability and licensing. "Software engineering" is just not a real thing as software people are not engineers.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#97
post #59

I hate these kinds of articles, which come off as "I read about a bunch of these things and if you don't know all the same stuff, how dare you call yourself senior". I typically see this in mid-level engineers who haven't gotten humbled by experience yet. The premise is bogus - most people are a mix of mappers and packers, rather than landing squarely on one end. And you can absolutely be a wonderful senior without k…

> And you can absolutely be a wonderful senior without knowing the details of the CPU architecture or definitions of OSI layers or whatever.

For me, that was a giveaway author had read a bunch of stuff but doesn't understand it (so, a "packer" in their own terms). I'd suspect that the article's author is either ignorant or tries to provoke readers.

Software engineers don't have to know about p-n junctions and what the heck an electron hole is - that's an entirely different field of science. In modern age, most people stick and try to become knowledgeable in at most one. Unless they design software for microelectronics design or physical simulations, of course.

And the Protocol Wars are long over, OSI model is dead, even though some folks still believe it's somehow applicable to modern networking. While I'm pretty sure there's a heavily smoke-stained machine still using X.25 somewhere out there, maintaining it and its software is literal necromancy (and while it is a proper subfield, it's a very niche one to require it for seniority).

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#98
> List of things that you should know about how it works

> How the computer works, from electrons to transistors, to CPU, assembly, and high-level programming languages.

> How the internet/network works, how you send some information from one computer to another, all OSI 7 Layers.

> How browsers work, how DOM works, how CSS renders, how JavaScript is loaded

The fact that this article is so popular on HN is absolutely mind blowing.

I know a ton about "electrons to transistors, to CPU, assembly" but only because I wasted many years of a life in the hardware industry and a EE degree, before finally switching over to SW. I probably know more about these topics than the author does. These domain-specific trivia have provided me approximately zero value in my career as a SW developer.

I also know nothing about about any of the other stuff mentioned above. And yet, I've had a very successful career as both a principal developer and startup founder who built a complex SW product from the ground up.

Job titles are nothing more than a noisy proxy for how much value your employer thinks you are contributing to the business. Contribute enough value, and you will earn and deserve a "senior developer" title. And unlike what the zealots and fundamentalists may believe, there is no "one true way" to deliver value. It is entirely dependent on the business, team, and circumstances you are in.

If you're not sure, ask your manager or more senior developers. If they tell you that you can provide more value to the business by knowing things like network-transport protocols, do exactly that. If not, don't waste your time studying a bunch of stuff that some online blogger insists is "the one true way."

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#99
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on "within minutes of being asked"? Is "I need a few hours to chew on this" unacceptable?

I think this is a perfect example of why "We don't have Senior Engineers anymore". It's hard to show the thinking process to others, so the person who says an answer faster is assumed to be better/more senior.

It's very easy to spot those who are intuitively correct based on past experience, even if they can't necessarily explain. Those people are clearly very senior, and are the folks you want around providing feedback on technical decisions.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#100

I think it's pretty hard to get a sense of what is out there unless you work across a wide variety of companies. I've been blessed to mainly work in companies that had very high engineering bars (finance, faang) but I spent two years at a scale up and the difference in engineers was crazy. Senior engineers who, when faced with an outage just threw up their hands and said "we dunno". And this was still a place that wa…

Someone expressed this very well to me. Top tier companies pick up the faang rejects. Middle tier get the top tier rejects. Bottom tier get the rejects from the middle tier. “We get what’s left. Sometimes we get lucky and get someone who’s fallen through the cracks” Personally I’m not a massive fan of the faang recruitment techniques and I think there’s a lot of fantastic senior engineers who want to do interesting w…

Shouldn't it be clear that if you're paying a software engineer $150K, the employer is getting $300-500k in value from their labor?
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