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We don't have senior engineers anymore

sibelius.substack.com

51–60 of 127 posts

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#51
I hadn't heard the Packer vs. Mapper analogy before and it's good. It reminds me of an experience I had in a different domain many years ago that I haven't been able to express in such succinct terms.

I hired a bookkeeper/comptroller/finance person for a very small startup and she was 100% a Packer. She had years of experience and interviewed very well but once she started I realized she knew all the motions of bookkeeping but she didn't actually grok what double-entry accounting was or what a balance sheet and how assets and liabilities and equity relate to each other.

So anytime we ran into a novel situation that could have been easily puzzled out by someone with a foundational understanding of accounting, she got paralyzed, made something up, and then blamed others for "not training her for this situation". Total nightmare.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to my previous employer. There, software engineers turned "senior" after 2 years. Then principal after 3 more. It was a scheduled activity to "upgrade". Only X people could turn senior every year because the title changed triggered a salary raise and they could only afford that for X people. I left when I got approval to hire 3 senior software engineers to my team but the salary level was only attractive to…

I keep seeing this (anecdotally) out if the Midwest. Folks with 4 years experience doing mostly front end work who’ve never deployed anything with the title “staff engineer”. I sort of feel bad for them because without a large step down in title they’d never get another job. Perhaps that’s the trick - title inflation to mask bad pay?

That's exactly what it is. Many organizations have strict pay bands and cannot attract talent without overly inflated titles; cue dozens of "directors" with no reports, and people with < 5 years experience being hired as "Staff Engineers" to build web apps.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#53

In all the companies I work for in the last 20 years "senior engineer" effectively meant someone with about 5 years of experience. In general the bar is low, indeed, and the title tends to be quite aggrandizing. The title that shows seniority ("been there, done that"), again in my experience, is the next one, which usually is "principal engineer".

But now you’re just moving the goalposts and inevitably someone else will make the same declaration about principal engineers and will instead insist that only Chief Architects (or whatever next step up the corporate ladder of madness is) are the really truly experienced class of engineers. It’s a pointless challenge to try and bucket engineers by skill levels like that. Titles are for compensation and rank, and noth…

When I worked on a project that had a dedicated architect, they really seemed like they were the only one doing engineering work (design). The rest of us were assembling their design, like technicians do.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#54

turns out there's no philosophy of engineering! IMO, this is also why we have "computer science"... as if computers were found in nature and we were trying to 'reverse engineer' how they are made; which is ridiculous! engineering, technology, computers, are not well covered by neither philosophy of arts nor sciences; if anything math's philosophy gets closer; but it's just a branch of phil. of science.

> as if computers were found in nature and we were trying to 'reverse engineer' how they are made; which is ridiculous! Computer Science is a branch of pure math, and arguably pure math is found in nature and we're just reverse engineering its laws.

Perhaps the fundamental logic behind pure math is "real" in the sense that it's "found in nature" (whatever that means, I don't see how we would prove that), and we're only applying this real thing to models that we've completely made up.

e.g., modus ponens is real, but a Turing Machine is not. We can reason about it logically but we didn't discover it, we made it up. Maybe the same can be said about numbers.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#55
post #40

I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this one, but can we stop using the word engineer in the commercial software and startup sector entirely. It's mostly hacking, fucked up things that make you cry, turds smeared all over stuff, religious factions fighting over faith (marketing) arguments and embarrassing catwalk fashion show bullshit. None of that is engineering . I'm only here because for some insane fucked up reason,…

What word do you propose we use instead? I feel like HR won’t feel too happy about advertising job openings for a „senior turd wrangler“.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#56
In my experience the software industry does not optimize engineering roles based on technical metrics. Getting promoted rarely involves demonstrating how you have grown technically. Instead it's about how well you communicate to the team and leadership, how well you organize the team around a problem, how well you put together a planned schedule. Getting estimates right and coming up with simple, effective solutions (for example), is rarely looked at for promotion. In other words, as engineers get promoted they do less engineering... and amazingly this has been literally admitted to me as if there's nothing wrong with it. It's no surprise that codebases get constantly re-written, simple features take exceedingly long to ship, and there is always a long list of bugs to fix, that often have recurring root causes that are never fixed. I think there's a need for engineers to optimize and maximize their specialty within an organization (because a lot of it is domain specific), and it would prevent a lot of the problems that plague software development, specially at enterprise levels.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#57
[front-loading this caveat: I'm speaking from the POV of a web developer]

It's hard not to agree with the general premise of the article - anyone can see the trend. But as always, there's some nuance that I think the article leaves out.

Thinking of it as "two different types of programmers" is reductive and encourages you to have a fixed mindset about people (i.e. I "am" a packer vs I "am" a mapper). Really, these are two sets of behaviors and approaches towards software engineering, and almost everyone has bits of both behaviors.

I began my tech career in web development in 2009, before all the frameworks and bootcamps and influencers. In those days there was still a massive focus on performance, and since bundlers weren't really a thing yet, a lot of the stuff was made in-house. I obsessed over fine-tuning the critical rendering paths of my websites, even hand-modifying SVGs so I could strip out unnecessary vector points. I went a little overboard at times.

I didn't use a JS framework (other than jQuery) until 2016, and since then, I have to admit that my mapper brain has atrophied into a packer brain. In my opinion, my industry has undergone two significant changes:

1. We've been under increasing pressure to ship as fast as possible, which encourages a packer mentality.

2. We've seen an explosion of VC-backed technologies that are impossible to keep up with.

Both of these things together make it very difficult to resist packer-behavior. For instance, when I first read about NextJS and the idea of "hydration", I felt this overwhelming sense of weariness. I could immediately imagine what they were doing at a high level, because I understand the fundamentals of web technology. But still, I also knew that in order to use NextJS effectively, I'd have to spend hours digging through their documentation to learn the nuances of their approach. At my age, I simply don't have the time or energy, especially if they're going to ditch that approach in their next version.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#58
post #40

I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this one, but can we stop using the word engineer in the commercial software and startup sector entirely. It's mostly hacking, fucked up things that make you cry, turds smeared all over stuff, religious factions fighting over faith (marketing) arguments and embarrassing catwalk fashion show bullshit. None of that is engineering . I'm only here because for some insane fucked up reason,…

I agree computer engineering is some of the least rigorous, but you're probably ultimately yelling at clouds here.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#59
I hate these kinds of articles, which come off as "I read about a bunch of these things and if you don't know all the same stuff, how dare you call yourself senior". I typically see this in mid-level engineers who haven't gotten humbled by experience yet. The premise is bogus - most people are a mix of mappers and packers, rather than landing squarely on one end. And you can absolutely be a wonderful senior without knowing the details of the CPU architecture or definitions of OSI layers or whatever. This is literally contradicting itself - you must not memorize but understand the why, but also here's a list of whys you should have memorized. Ugh. How about we accept that titles are meaningless, that companies have different standards and incentives, and that as long as higher titles mean more money and clout, individuals will generally optimize for that.

And speaking of titles, it looks like the author spent a total of one year in the workforce before going on to become a cofounder/CTO and currently claims that title at four organizations simultaneously (with under ten years of experience, not that this is an indicator of much). Wonder how he feels about the CTO bar.

Re: We don't have senior engineers anymore

#60
post #48

Any article that splits people into two groups and says one group cannot inherently be good at something immediately puts me off, sorry.

I can definitely say that I am a mapper and not a packer. But I can also say that I am pretty much _all_ mapper and no packer. This means that it takes me forever to understand a lot of things that presumed packers (or more balanced individuals) would get in a jiffy. This is not intended as a humble brag! For the longest time on some projects I just don't f**ing get it, I start to feel dumb and in way: out of place.…

This is me as well. I’m not very good at memorizing things so I have to build a mental model of a system that I’m working in and extrapolate.

It gives me a lot of anxiety to be in that trough before it clicks.

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