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The presumption that computers are working correctly

emptycity.substack.com

111–120 of 171 posts

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#111
post #64
post #7

As a programmer, it's my experience that the computer itself usually works correctly. It's almost never a hardware bug. But software.... software gets things wrong all the time and the computer hardware just blindly does what the software told it to.

It's appears to you this way because you're an insider in software. If you were in hardware, you would believe the opposite.

No.

Hardware people are fully aware of their shortcomings, but they also are fully aware that software is even worse.

Far far worse.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#112

The last time I looked into the Post Office scandal, the impression I got was that "we just had too much faith in the IT system!" was a convenient story, but the high-ups knew full well about the problems, and full well that they were persecuting innocent people, but did it anyway to cover up their own failings. If so, people need to see substantial jail terms for this. Perverting the course of justice is no misdemea…

Do you think an increase in punishment the executives expected would have led to the problems for subpostmasters being resolved faster or slower?

Your question makes a good point. Punishment is only effective at the bottom of the funnel.

A well designed system, whether a computer or an organization should always have controls that guide things to where they should be. That means carrots and sticks.

In a place like a post office, that means separation of duties, audit, and clear lines of accountability. Things fail when nobody asks awkward questions or looks.

I do think that leadership responsible for a debacle like this must be punished. Their incompetence destroyed lives of innocent people.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#113
post #46
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a firmware engineer I’m horrified at the presumption that hardware is always operating correctly. Many times I’ve been told “your new firmware is broken” and the real problem is something as mundane as an improper capacitor or resistor value. Also just look at the errata sheet for any microcontroller. Hardware bugs are so prevalent we have a special term and semi standardized document to describe them.

That's funny, because this just came in: https://apnews.com/article/iphone-15-overheating-apple-softw...

What makes you think this isn't just a software bug?

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#114

The last time I looked into the Post Office scandal, the impression I got was that "we just had too much faith in the IT system!" was a convenient story, but the high-ups knew full well about the problems, and full well that they were persecuting innocent people, but did it anyway to cover up their own failings. If so, people need to see substantial jail terms for this. Perverting the course of justice is no misdemea…

There is substantial evidence that the people in power in the Post Office Board dismissed the evidence from the sub post masters because they were, more often than not of Asian descent (Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani,...). So the Post Office Board had a mental block to joining the dots because they were racist. When they were eventually confronted with the overwhelming evidence of hundreds of false convictions they d…

> they doubled down because they lack any sense of morality.

I don't believe you know what their internal mental states are.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#115
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a major problem with many of such issues. Some stuff is just really horrible, often even without any clear approach of how to fix it. It then gets even more problematic if people react to this by retreating into easy stories that act as mental fig leaves. Especially once these leads to clearly dysfunctional attempts to solve the issue, making the situation even worse for those effected.

I mean sure, but it is also ok to delegate handling these to people with the proper psychological support.

Determining who to trust with this (on what topics) seems to be an incredibly hard problem with no obvious solution. And unfortunately a lot of people either seem to delegate to those that make nice sounding promises or ignore the issues all together. Even the statement you just made could always turn out to be a "noble lie" aimed preserving personal sanity at horrible cost for others. After all, having psychological support, or being able to deal with this, says nothing about what kind of solution they would produce. In all likelihood those people to delegate to will turn out to be in large parts depressed, detached or psychopaths. So i dont see a way around verification.

Having agency in a society ( through democracy, markets, shaping narratives in discussions and many other ways) might just require adults who deal with the horrible aspects society produces in a responsible manner. Which includes not designing solutions for a false peace of mind. After all, you yourself (as in every individual) are the one responsible for the consequences you produce.

Personally i hope this might be a matter of outer alignment, as in a problem of not agreeing on shared goals that you can apply to problem solving in a coordinated manner. Which has to include the ability to verify process and outcome (which unfortunately in itself are highly safety critical) and the unwillingness to accept false but pleasant conclusions with high costs for others.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#116
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m often surprised that computer systems work at all. I also remain contunually amazed that anything works. It boggles my mind, because I have seen how software gets built. How can it possibly all work? I think my answer to this conundrum and seeming paradox is that it doesn't all work. We have trained ourselves and been trained to accept things that aren't working as something else. And like you say, people treat…

> How can it possibly all work? What must not to fail has very rigorous standards, e.g. Nasa, aerospace, and medical devices. Everything is built like an onion of failsafes.

Even the stuff that's built to rigorous standards is mostly built with a serials of failsafes because the same issues of being able to trust the thing apply. But it's fine because like you note, failsafes limit the effect of any individual failure.

Beyond that too, I think it's just important for people to realize that most things just don't matter that much. Everything we do eventually has to reach human scale and at human scale, there's so much room for slop and correction that most failures don't matter. Missing a paycheck because the payroll computer dropped your row is awful, but society can be built around allowing people to recover from that. Late payment forgiveness, forbearance, procedures around cutting a new check early.

I think the biggest danger about the "presumption that computers are working correctly" is in it's ability to erode our understand of the fact that "to err is human". It's too easy if you assume the machines are perfect to assume that any errors are therefore malicious, and so it's easy to go from a system where you have "oops my tax software messed up, no big deal I'll file an amended return" to "the only way for a mistake like this to happen is to intentionally put in bad data, so you must be guilty of tax fraud". Or even worse "the computer won't let me do it". I understand you want computers to have check in place that prevent the overriding of procedure and you don't want to give your low level employees the ability to override procedure at will. I also think that EVERY system should be built such that it is possible with a certain combination of people on site at the point of contact to override ANY check in the system to make the state of the system match what it should be. My specific example in this case was a problem with a prescription at the pharmacy. The script had been partially filled because they had stocking problems, but instead of going into the "partial" state, it was closed as filled completely. The tech knew what had happened and knew we still were owed the rest of the script. The pharmacist knew what had happened and agreed we were owed the rest of the script. The store manager agreed. And yet no one could change the state of the system. The only option was to get a new script from the doctor for a new fill entirely. That's the danger of assuming everything is working correctly all the time.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#117
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But thinking about a court case, what should be the presumption? Should it be up to the prosecution to prove that the RAID controller / network card didn't corrupt the data or that the GPU did the math correctly? Or should it be up to the defense to prove that it didn't? And how would each side demonstrate their case to a reasonable level of certainty? As others in this thread have said, for bits of the system that h…

Mathematical verification of both hardware and software should be mandatory, at least as long you rely on it for the law. Simple as that. For example, how can you trust a photo, when tons of computational photography has been applied to it, and you don't know the exact amount the algorithms can change the photo?

Come now; imagine a world where nobody could ever be convicted without mathematical verification of all components of evidence. Nobody could be convicted of anything, since even if we had 10 people and three 4k video cameras all see someone pull out a gun and shoot somebody, we can't have mathematical certainty even of the three video cameras, much less the unreliable wetware memories of 10 people. We might as well give up having trials entirely.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#118
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m often surprised that computer systems work at all. I also remain contunually amazed that anything works. It boggles my mind, because I have seen how software gets built. How can it possibly all work? I think my answer to this conundrum and seeming paradox is that it doesn't all work. We have trained ourselves and been trained to accept things that aren't working as something else. And like you say, people treat…

> How can it possibly all work? What must not to fail has very rigorous standards, e.g. Nasa, aerospace, and medical devices. Everything is built like an onion of failsafes.

Having worked in the areas you are describing, it's still duct tape and rubber bands, they just are better prepared for redundancy and error recovery.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#119
post #113
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny, because this just came in: https://apnews.com/article/iphone-15-overheating-apple-softw...

What makes you think this isn't just a software bug?

Because "too hot to handle" tells me that this should have really been prevented at the hardware level, and this is also common practice.

Re: The presumption that computers are working correctly

#120
post #57
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m quite interested to learn and understand the line of reasoning for this comment. Care to elaborate?

If bugs were easy to find and solve there wouldn't be an entire highly paid industry to do it. Add to that malicious actors actively trying to work against systems (bank/post office/medical system etc) and it becomes pretty hard to prove that both the software and the data referenced by the software is in fact correct. Now think about the last time a critical piece of data was recorded on paper with a pen/analogue ty…

Thanks for the detailed answer. I think however that the real reason that there is a big industry to find and solve bugs is because of decision made when building and designing the software in the first place. For example if software was built in a robust way with care taken to refactor code along the way then maintenance and bug fixing would probably be a lot easier and may not need an entire industry to support it
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