Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

scientificamerican.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 326 posts

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#181

Post by crazygringo »

soatok wrote: post #180
crazygringo wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's as fundamental as the four fundamental forces, then it belongs in the same level of abstraction. I didn't say that it belongs at the same level of abstraction, and no that isn't necessarily implied. It might be even deeper, it might be something in parallel that then interacts at a higher level, we currently don't have the slightest idea. And there certainly isn't any evidence that it isn't as deep as neutr…

> I didn't say that it belongs at the same level of abstraction, and no that isn't necessarily implied. The definition of fundamental is, in this context, best compared with this one from Merriam Webster: "of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts" -- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fundamental When you compare things using "as", you're stating equivalence. The statement "Conscious awarenes…

> The most literal meaning of what you said above is: Consciousness is as relative to the essential structure, function, or facts as the four known fundamental forces.

Yes, that is absolutely what I meant.

That doesn't mean that it operates at the specific level of bosons or the force of gravity, which is what I read your comment as suggesting.

It's been a pleasure conversing -- I sadly no longer have time to continue, but these are exactly the kinds of debates philosophers of consciousness have -- there's a lot to clarify and figure out! It's a fascinating field.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#182

Post by soatok »

crazygringo wrote: post #181
soatok wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't say that it belongs at the same level of abstraction, and no that isn't necessarily implied. The definition of fundamental is, in this context, best compared with this one from Merriam Webster: "of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts" -- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fundamental When you compare things using "as", you're stating equivalence. The statement "Conscious awarenes…

> The most literal meaning of what you said above is: Consciousness is as relative to the essential structure, function, or facts as the four known fundamental forces. Yes, that is absolutely what I meant. That doesn't mean that it operates at the specific level of bosons or the force of gravity, which is what I read your comment as suggesting. It's been a pleasure conversing -- I sadly no longer have time to continu…

> Yes, that is absolutely what I meant.

> That doesn't mean that it operates at the specific level of bosons or the force of gravity, which is what I read your comment as suggesting.

This is a contradiction.

If something is as fundamental as bosons, then it operates at the same level as bosons. Otherwise, it's not as fundamental as bosons. It could be more fundamental, it could be less.

I gave the examples of tensegrity and fluid dynamics above. That they're not as fundamental as quantum fields doesn't make them any less real. They're just not as fundamental.

So which is it?

> It's been a pleasure conversing -- I sadly no longer have time to continue, but these are exactly the kinds of debates philosophers of consciousness have -- there's a lot to clarify and figure out! It's a fascinating field.

I understand. I'm leaving my response for anyone else who agrees with you to pick up should they choose.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#183

Post by jayd16 »

nico wrote: post #177
jayd16 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm I think we've moved the goal post from "know anything" to "truly know" (whatever that means).

I said it’s two different things, and explained why/how Now, if you actually have something interesting to add to the conversation, please do

I'm just trying to understand what you're saying because you yourself used the words "know anything".

So if your comment is not about knowledge but only experience then all you are saying is a simple tautology, ie the only way to experience something is to experience it.

This really doesn't hit on the nature of experience or how it is similar or different from knowledge.

Could a memory of an experience be implanted? Yes, such things happen. We experience imaginary things in dreams as well.

It seems problematic to conflate experience and knowledge, which you seem to be doing even while admitting they are different. You seem to argue that experience is a truer form of knowledge but I would push back and argue they are tangential.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#184

Post by nico »

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

> What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics?

Definition of natural philosophy:

> natural science, especially physical science

Physics at its core is philosophy, and its models, as sophisticated or complete as may be, can never be separated from an interpreter

Religion is also in great part philosophy, and both physics and religion similarly arise from a drive to understand the nature of the universe

All of these things intersect, and the article is about one of those points of intersection

Which angle you want to take is your own personal choice. But please don’t be so quick to dismiss others’ interest in probing at the fundamentals of the universe just because you don’t agree with the way they go about it

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#185

Post by notamy »

randallsquared wrote: post #139
notamy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming we develop (apparently) conscious minds on our current trajectory, there will be opportunities to run experiments in parallel, have real controls, and AGI researchers will, hypothetically, be able to self-introspect all the way down to the most basic level. If a hypothetical AGI is truly believed to be conscious, how could it ever possibly be ethical to experiment on such a thing?

Consent plus the ability to reset make it at least possible to respect ethics in such experiments, unlike with biological organisms.

> Consent

Which we could likely easily engineer into whatever system eventually exists, once that point is reached. I doubt anyone who makes such a thing would intentionally engineer it to NOT consent to their experimentation.

> Consent plus the ability to reset

For a hypothetical example: If I said I would perform on you, but it's okay because I can force consent into you and then perfectly reset your brain and body back to how they were pre-experiment, would you still be okay with it? This may be a bit of an extreme way of looking at it, but the ethical concerns matter.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#186

Post by nico »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #107
jemmyw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

I think that there is such a groundswell of articles about 'consciousness', right now, is because of the surge in AI and GPT. If this is true. >"state arising from the physical processes" Then nothing prevents silicon from eventually also being 'conscious'. Carbon or Silicon, they are both a physical processes. Electrical potentials. So the section of population that just can't abide that AI could be 'conscious' are…

> the section of population that just can't abide that AI could be 'conscious' are finding all these more esoteric arguments about the universe being 'consciousness'

Panpsychism asserts that everything is conscious, which means that AI or silicon would already be conscious, which basically means there is no special human spark

If anything, if you are trying to prove that AI is not conscious, you would be absolutely rejecting panpsychism or anything that remotely resembles it

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#187

Post by nico »

orwin wrote: post #124
jemmyw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

I think consciousness emerge from physical processes. Imho consciousness is necessary to have a sense of self, and especially of self through time. This imply any living being capable of improvising new strategies (not randomly through chance and genetic lottery) is 'conscious' in the same sense that we are.

Not rejecting your comment. Just a note that consciousness does not need a sense of self

You can absolutely be conscious without having a sense of self

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#188

Post by bigboy12 »

jemmyw wrote: post #102
BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

200 years ago, we thought the universe was just the Milky Way. You really can’t determine what consciousness is until you know what it is. There’s no evidence that consciousness arises from the physical body at all. If you look at a dead body. The “life” is gone. Who knows where or. what it is, we certainly don’t at this point.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#189

Post by nico »

some_furry wrote: post #152
mindok wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you conceive of bosons or gravity without consciousness? How can you possibly prove objective reality through the filter of subjective consciousness?

It doesn't matter how I conceive of anything. They existed for billions of years before I came around. Even if, like, I take a solipsistic approach to life, objective reality has a sort of object permanence to it that's more stable than e.g. my dreams. So even if everything is a hallucination, the mechanism for preserving the information is the closest to "real" I can identify. And from studying the things we call re…

> They existed for billions of years before I came around.

And how did you come to learn this? Through your consciousness

Everything that you can know or experience is mediated through your consciousness

Anything you believe to be objective truth or reality, you came to believe through consciousness

There is no way for you (or anyone else for that matter), to know if anything really exists outside our own consciousness

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#190

Post by amatecha »

jemmyw wrote: post #102
BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

Yeah, I’ve believed for most of my life that consciousness is some emergent thing that arises from the interaction of all the complex biological processes of our brain and its sensory input. Most people don’t like to hear this though, and I don’t express the idea often - it’s disappointing to consider this possibility (I consider it certain, as I’ve observed nothing to suggest otherwise).
Post reply on HN