Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#171

Post by 2snakes » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:24 PM UTC

some_furry wrote: post #152

mindok wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you conceive of bosons or gravity without consciousness? How can you possibly prove objective reality through the filter of subjective consciousness?

It doesn't matter how I conceive of anything. They existed for billions of years before I came around. Even if, like, I take a solipsistic approach to life, objective reality has a sort of object permanence to it that's more stable than e.g. my dreams. So even if everything is a hallucination, the mechanism for preserving the information is the closest to "real" I can identify. And from studying the things we call re…

Just consider that everything you come in contact with, including the assertion of the sense-data that led you to the conclusion of "billions of years", is contaminated by the fact that is utterly impossible to disprove consciousness. Everything else that comes in through the senses can be doubted, but consciousness is the only thing you are in direct contact with. But I agree partially with you that there may be a form of consciousness that is more primary than our subjective consciousness (I think we agree that reality is a "real" logical system, probably infinite, and possibly intelligent itself). But we have a relationship with reality, in fact we may be a kind of accelerated rotation of it with reincarnative compartmentalization.

I've only read the first couple of chapters, yet, but this book lay out the philosophical problems with physicalism: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CGNXWTBN

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#172

Post by crazygringo » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:27 PM UTC

some_furry wrote: post #143

crazygringo wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't. It still has to be integrated with it, that's the whole point. We don't know how gravity is implied by the standard model either, but we still know it's there. The point is that, at the end of the day, it's still necessarily going to be physics.

I'm not a philosopher. I did study physics in college. I do not see it necessary for consciousness to be as fundamental as electroweak interactions and so on. In my mind, it's perfectly possible for consciousness to be an emergent property of a complex system that itself is not conscious in any meaningful way. Look at other examples of this; i.e. tensegrity. To conclude that consciousness is as fundamental as bosons…

Nobody said consciousness is best described at the subatomic level next to bosons. It may be, it may not be. Currently there is no evidence in either direction. Gravity certainly proves that the standard model is quite incomplete so far, and we currently don't have the slightest idea how.

But I earlier used fluid dynamics as an example of emergence. To make the point that fluid dynamics is still physics.

Philosophically, the fact that consciousness is going to be part of physics is self-evidently true. It's true by definition if you believe that consciousness interacts with the universe as described by physics -- for which the specific evidence is that we're having this conversation in the first place.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#173

Post by 2snakes » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:28 PM UTC

blacksqr wrote: post #98

swader999 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something I wonder myself. I need to do a few more, maybe up to fifty before I have enough subjective data to be certain. What is this experiment to prove I'm not lucid dreaming? You can put your fingers on your nostrils and blow through fingers in lucid dream, irl the air stops, but in OBE, you might not have a full body. One time I did, other time I was just like a shadow, half formed. Really weird. There's…

>What is this experiment to prove I'm not lucid dreaming? For decades magician and debunker of supernatural claims James Randi placed a new object on his dining table every month, and offered a million dollar prize to anyone who could tell him what the current object was. Of course the prize was never claimed. Ask a friend down your block to put something on their dining table. Do your OBE thing and write down what y…

This is technically feasible with the secret key of Kriya Yoga, leaving the body through the third eye stargate.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#174

Post by soatok » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:32 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #172

some_furry wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a philosopher. I did study physics in college. I do not see it necessary for consciousness to be as fundamental as electroweak interactions and so on. In my mind, it's perfectly possible for consciousness to be an emergent property of a complex system that itself is not conscious in any meaningful way. Look at other examples of this; i.e. tensegrity. To conclude that consciousness is as fundamental as bosons…

Nobody said consciousness is best described at the subatomic level next to bosons. It may be, it may not be. Currently there is no evidence in either direction. Gravity certainly proves that the standard model is quite incomplete so far, and we currently don't have the slightest idea how. But I earlier used fluid dynamics as an example of emergence. To make the point that fluid dynamics is still physics . Philosophic…

> Nobody said consciousness is best described at the subatomic level next to bosons.

Above:

> Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces

If it's as fundamental as the four fundamental forces, then it belongs in the same level of abstraction. Fluid dynamics isn't as fundamental as quantum chromodynamics.

I found the statement that consciousness is as fundamental should be worthy of further examination. Hence, my inquiry.

> But philosophically, the fact that consciousness is going to be part of physics is self-evidently true. It's true by definition if you believe that consciousness interacts with the universe as described by physics -- for which the specific evidence is that we're having this conversation in the first place.

Okay, yes, but that's a very different notion than what was discussed above. Consciousness being purely physical is, I believe, the most likely explanation. It being as fundamental as neutrinos is not.

(My primary account is rate limited, so I'm posting my final comment in this thread from my alt.)

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#175

Post by aradox66 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:37 PM UTC

strogonoff wrote: post #41

choxi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched Hoffman’s Lex Fridman interview, it sounds like his idea is that our perceptions are like a user interface that abstracts reality so we don’t perceive reality as it actually is. Isn’t that well accepted already? We know we don’t sense everything, and our brains give us a highly compressed version of the senses we do have. But none of that matters when we use tools like cameras or microphones because they’re…

I see little in common between Hoffman’s interface theory of consciousness and merely stating that our minds filter out (lossily compress, etc.) information about reality. Hoffman appears to effectively suggest Kantian idealism: by claiming that perceived time-space and phenomena in it are more like icons on a screen, a representation of some abstract network of conscious agents, he takes a stab at the hard problem a…

This is in line with some Buddhist perspectives (arguably dependent origination is about this) - awareness is more or less synonymous with ultimate reality, and that gets filtered and formed and abstracted and compressed to generate the everyday relative reality we take for granted

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#176

Post by crazygringo » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:43 PM UTC

soatok wrote: post #174

crazygringo wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody said consciousness is best described at the subatomic level next to bosons. It may be, it may not be. Currently there is no evidence in either direction. Gravity certainly proves that the standard model is quite incomplete so far, and we currently don't have the slightest idea how. But I earlier used fluid dynamics as an example of emergence. To make the point that fluid dynamics is still physics . Philosophic…

> Nobody said consciousness is best described at the subatomic level next to bosons. Above: > Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces If it's as fundamental as the four fundamental forces, then it belongs in the same level of abstraction. Fluid dynamics isn't as fundamental as quantum chromodynamics. I found the statement that consc…

> If it's as fundamental as the four fundamental forces, then it belongs in the same level of abstraction.

I didn't say that it belongs at the same level of abstraction, and no that isn't necessarily implied. It might be even deeper, it might be something in parallel that then interacts at a higher level, we currently don't have the slightest idea.

And there certainly isn't any evidence that it isn't as deep as neutrinos, for example. You assert that there is a "most likely explanation", but there isn't. Nothing is most likely when there is no evidence at all in any direction.

But we know consciousness interacts with the physical universe, so we can say that it's part of physics. We're just trying to locate where. But nothing rules out the subatomic level prima facie. The root-level comment attempted to do something like that, and I am pushing back on that.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#177

Post by nico » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:48 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #158

nico wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the quote and your questions seem like different concepts Regarding your questions: There is a difference between intellectual knowledge and experience Sometimes the concept of gnosis is used to differentiate them So for example, you can read a book about riding a bike, maybe the book is very detailed and tells you everything there is to “know” about riding a bike, but unless you actually ride a bike, you can…

Hmm I think we've moved the goal post from "know anything" to "truly know" (whatever that means).

I said it’s two different things, and explained why/how

Now, if you actually have something interesting to add to the conversation, please do

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#178

Post by nico » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:52 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #142

nico wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the quote and your questions seem like different concepts Regarding your questions: There is a difference between intellectual knowledge and experience Sometimes the concept of gnosis is used to differentiate them So for example, you can read a book about riding a bike, maybe the book is very detailed and tells you everything there is to “know” about riding a bike, but unless you actually ride a bike, you can…

> So for example, you can read a book about riding a bike, maybe the book is very detailed and tells you everything there is to “know” about riding a bike, but unless you actually ride a bike, you can never “truly know” (experience) what riding a bike is This is often asserted, but I don't see any reason to believe it is true. Just like we can picture creatures that have never existed, and even draw elaborate images…

> we can picture an experience

Picture it, but not experience it, it’s two different things

Whether our own perception is an accident of our genetic makeup or a fundamental property doesn’t really matter, it’s still the only way we can ever experience the world

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#179

Post by swader999 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:58 PM UTC

polishdude20 wrote: post #111

swader999 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time thinking that its simulated, like we are stuck inside a computer in Tron. But I do believe what we interact with is not the essence, its only a small part of everything else that underlies, that we just can't sense is there.

Yeah it seems like what others see as a simulation , you can also see that as just the limit of what we currently know. Like, there are things we don't know. In one hundred years, we will find out more and that will now be part of our base reality. Just because there are things we don't know doesn't mean they're part of some objective outside reality. They're just not discovered yet.

I think we are finding out more every decade. It takes a long time for this to be established and accepted.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#180

Post by soatok » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 12:01 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #176

soatok wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody said consciousness is best described at the subatomic level next to bosons. Above: > Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces If it's as fundamental as the four fundamental forces, then it belongs in the same level of abstraction. Fluid dynamics isn't as fundamental as quantum chromodynamics. I found the statement that consc…

> If it's as fundamental as the four fundamental forces, then it belongs in the same level of abstraction. I didn't say that it belongs at the same level of abstraction, and no that isn't necessarily implied. It might be even deeper, it might be something in parallel that then interacts at a higher level, we currently don't have the slightest idea. And there certainly isn't any evidence that it isn't as deep as neutr…

> I didn't say that it belongs at the same level of abstraction, and no that isn't necessarily implied.

The definition of fundamental is, in this context, best compared with this one from Merriam Webster: "of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts" -- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fundamental

When you compare things using "as", you're stating equivalence.

The statement "Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces" states that consciousness is as relative to the essential structure as the four fundamental known forces.

The most literal meaning of what you said above is: Consciousness is as relative to the essential structure, function, or facts as the four known fundamental forces.

If that's not what you intended, then you're free to acknowledge that you misspoke, and to correct your previous statement with a clearer, more precise meaning.

But to say "and no that isn't necessarily implied" is wrong.