Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#111

Post by polishdude20 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

swader999 wrote: post #74

fishtacos wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separating this question from the rest of the conversation: Do you think it's plausible we live in a simulated existence? If so, how? If not, why not? (very broad questions, am aware; simply wanted to get an input on your perspective).

I have a hard time thinking that its simulated, like we are stuck inside a computer in Tron. But I do believe what we interact with is not the essence, its only a small part of everything else that underlies, that we just can't sense is there.

Yeah it seems like what others see as a simulation , you can also see that as just the limit of what we currently know. Like, there are things we don't know. In one hundred years, we will find out more and that will now be part of our base reality. Just because there are things we don't know doesn't mean they're part of some objective outside reality. They're just not discovered yet.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#112

Post by Buttons840 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

sohamssd wrote: post #105

swader999 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something I wonder myself. I need to do a few more, maybe up to fifty before I have enough subjective data to be certain. What is this experiment to prove I'm not lucid dreaming? You can put your fingers on your nostrils and blow through fingers in lucid dream, irl the air stops, but in OBE, you might not have a full body. One time I did, other time I was just like a shadow, half formed. Really weird. There's…

A simple experiment would be to have someone else write down a number on a piece of paper while you weren't in that room, have you do your OBE thingy and then accurately tell that number several times.

Even just once would be near proof, assuming care was taken to ensure the secret didn't "leak" somehow. Maybe have an open-minded neighbor put a sticky note on the wall by his bed. If you find the number, you'll know it's real.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#113

Post by BasedAnon » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #90

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

I hate that most education systems don’t teach that physics has its roots in philosophy and some of the most rigorous recent math stems from philosophy (Gödel) leading to vacuous gatekeeping comments like this.

I'm well aware the physics is just 'natural philosophy', that doesn't make it anymore reasonable to start using it as the tool for metaphysics. It's a clear category error, like trying to use food chemistry to elucidate cognitive psychology in a literal sense.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#114

Post by orwin » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #107

jemmyw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

I think that there is such a groundswell of articles about 'consciousness', right now, is because of the surge in AI and GPT. If this is true. >"state arising from the physical processes" Then nothing prevents silicon from eventually also being 'conscious'. Carbon or Silicon, they are both a physical processes. Electrical potentials. So the section of population that just can't abide that AI could be 'conscious' are…

Agree. I'll also say it's a lot further away than your comment implies. Once ChatGPT4 can add metonymy by itself in a random discussion, talking about consciousness in silicon can be interesting.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#115

Post by Buttons840 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

swader999 wrote: post #69

fishtacos wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could, I would. Most of what you wrote is anathema to evidential scientific conversation. If you've got no evidence for it besides the subjective, then it's not provable. I've no idea who Tom is, so I followed up on what you wrote and believe I have enough of a glimpse to see he's a crackpot theorist. Being a physicist doesn't abscond one of the burden of proof. Apparently he's been cooking up a new double slit…

Yeah all fair critism, except that experiment is involved and it does take that long to get rigerous results. You can actually do this. Takes about ten or so tries over a few weeks for most. I haven't tried to fly like a bird yet. Hopefully I'll get to experience that next.

They way you sell it, I gotta say, even if it's all imagination I want to try it.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#116

Post by crazygringo » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe.

How could consciousness not be lumped in with physics, from this perspective?

It doesn't matter whether consciousness pervades the universe in a form of panpsychism, or is emergent out of interactions we already understand. Fluid mechanics is emergent too, in a sense -- that doesn't put it outside of physics.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#117

Post by mannykannot » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #11

jasfi wrote: post #3

I suspect so. But we need a way to find out what it's made of and measure it. It seems to be very elusive in that regard.

The purpose of Goff's choice for the title of his book Galileo's Error is explained in the introduction: that Galileo limited science to only things that are quantifiable, and completely ignores qualitative factors. Note the common etymology with the word qualia . Some way to expose evidence of consciousness to external observers may be necessary or it may be impossible given the apparati that science currently provi…

It is quite clear, from his own work, that Goff is just casting around to find something about science and the scientific method which might account for a belief (that consciousness is not a physical phenomenon) that he has come to by other means. This view is intrinsic to a doctrine of "Russellian Monism" which asserts that the physical sciences can only talk of the relationship between entities, and not their intrinsic natures.

How Goff hopes to discover anything substantive about supposed intrinsic natures that do not reveal themselves by participating in relations, or how they can account for consciousness apparently being causal in the physical world, has not been revealed to us by him, or anyone else.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#118

Post by krapp » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #90

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

I hate that most education systems don’t teach that physics has its roots in philosophy and some of the most rigorous recent math stems from philosophy (Gödel) leading to vacuous gatekeeping comments like this.

Chemistry has its roots in alchemy, but that doesn't mean alchemy deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as chemistry.

Medicine has its roots in witchcraft but that doesn't mean witchcraft deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as medicine.

Astronomy has its roots in astrology, but that doesn't mean astrology deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as astronomy.

Philosophy isn't physics, and philosophy doesn't deserve to be treated like physics. The premise that panpsychism - which is essentially the basis for all animist and shamanic religions (the belief that all things have an innate mind or will) should be treated as a peer to relativity or quantum mechanics is absurd.

I mean, quoting directly from TFA:

    Part of the appeal of panpsychism is that it appears to provide a workaround to the question posed by Chalmers: we no longer have to worry about how inanimate matter forms minds because mindedness was there all along, residing in the fabric of the universe. Chalmers himself has embraced a form of panpsychism and even suggested that individual particles might be somehow aware. He said in a TED Talk that a photon “might have some element of raw, subjective feeling, some primitive precursor to consciousness.”

We're to take seriously, as a scientific claim, that individual particles are aware and have feelings. That when a ball rolls downhill, it's because the ball wants to roll downhill. That when it rains, it's because Mother Earth weeps. It isn't gatekeeping to reject such nonsense, it's simply garbage collection.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#119

Post by nico » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:36 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #97

nico wrote: post #6

> Since Galileo’s time the physical sciences have leaped forward, explaining the workings of the tiniest quarks to the largest galaxy clusters. But explaining things that reside “only in consciousness” Everything we know about anything is mediated through our subjective understanding and perception. Be it mathematical formulas that describe the universe or feelings about something. If you remove people, we don’t know…

> it is just impossible to know anything about a universe that doesn’t include our perception of it Is this true? What about logical deductions? Can't you use math and logic to know things without perceiving them?

To me, the quote and your questions seem like different concepts

Regarding your questions:

There is a difference between intellectual knowledge and experience

Sometimes the concept of gnosis is used to differentiate them

So for example, you can read a book about riding a bike, maybe the book is very detailed and tells you everything there is to “know” about riding a bike, but unless you actually ride a bike, you can never “truly know” (experience) what riding a bike is

Now regarding our perception and the universe:

We live in the universe, we are part of it, we can’t ever separate ourselves from it

Then how would we ever be able to remove our perception from it? It’s impossible to truly know

Of course we can speculate and we can come up with endless ideas, but we can never truly know anything that we don’t experience

In that sense, even our ideas are mediated through our inner perception of them

And of course this is my own subjective perception of my reality, as it is all I have

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#120

Post by some_furry » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:37 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #116

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe. How could consciousness not be lumped in with physics, from this perspective? It doesn't matter whether consciousness pervades the universe in a form of panpsychism, or is emergent out of interactions we already understand.…

> Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe.

Why do you believe this to be true?

If it's a self-evident observation, try explaining it to me like I'm 5.