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Kickstarter: rails.app

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Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#151

Post by oinksoft »

route66 wrote: post #149
oinksoft wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) $25k is not a lot of money for very well-known programmers. What if Linus said, "I have this great idea for a version control system, but I need the community to raise $100k to make it happen"? Of course he would never do that. The reason for making git was to give the kernel project what it needed for a version control system. Linus' time is at least an order of magnitude more valuable than Yahuda Katz' time. Jus…

> Of course he would never do that. Why? Maybe he was paid by the linux foundation during that time? Other sources of income? The gratuit "of course" is not clear to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you try to say, but: " rails.app ought to make Rails more popular [...] wider deployment of Rails enriches Ruby developers". Are you saying that Yehuda should not make money from his efforts, but the Ruby developers in…

Why? Maybe he was paid by the linux foundation during that time? Other sources of income? The gratuit "of course" is not clear to me.

And Rails is sponsored by 37Signals. You'd be hard pressed to find very many large open source projects without commercial backing.

Are you saying that Yehuda should not make money from his efforts, but the Ruby developers in turn can use the results naturally for their gain?

That is generally how things work. Companies specializing in open source technologies have a business interest in their specialty software(s) becoming more popular. A core Rails developer will command the highest speaking and consulting fees.

I think the reservation many people have about all of this is that it feels backwards. Asking for sponsors is one thing, but making the open source project pay-to-play flies in the face of the spirit of FLOSS.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#152

Post by route66 »

oinksoft wrote: post #151
route66 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course he would never do that. Why? Maybe he was paid by the linux foundation during that time? Other sources of income? The gratuit "of course" is not clear to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you try to say, but: " rails.app ought to make Rails more popular [...] wider deployment of Rails enriches Ruby developers". Are you saying that Yehuda should not make money from his efforts, but the Ruby developers in…

Why? Maybe he was paid by the linux foundation during that time? Other sources of income? The gratuit "of course" is not clear to me. And Rails is sponsored by 37Signals. You'd be hard pressed to find very many large open source projects without commercial backing. Are you saying that Yehuda should not make money from his efforts, but the Ruby developers in turn can use the results naturally for their gain? That is g…

> but making the open source project pay-to-play flies in the face of the spirit of FLOSS

Ah, maybe I just do not agree with that spirit. The SBCL compiler fared well with Nikodemus Siivola's crowdfunding: http://random-state.net/log/3523852985.html

At the same time I do not get how this is a problem for people to accept wrt software, while it is the common suggestion to artists in copyright questions on HN: go crowdfunding!

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#153

Post by methoddk »

Installing Rails on OSX is trivial. If one really needs this process streamlined, maybe you shouldn't be coding? Or maybe you should just stop using a computer?

Similar to the Svbtle drama, this is yet another post lingering on the front page that has no business here.

I thought this was hacker news. Seems more like "check out my super cool project that you can't use unless you're awesome or you pay me" news. :(

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#154

Post by billsix »

So did DHH give permission to use the Rails logo for this project?????

"The use of the logo is restricted as it always is when talking about a trademark. When the logo is used in a commercial setting, such as part of the promotion of a book, it legally requires that the trademark holder has been involved and stands behind the quality of the book. If that's not the case, you're on the way to lose your trademark. So I only grant promotional use for products I'm directly involved with. Such as books that I've been part of the development process for or conferences where I have a say in the execution."

http://www.rubyinside.com/david-heinemeier-hansson-says-no-t...

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#155

Post by moe »

mgkimsal wrote: post #139
moe wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To figure out your list, I have to No. You have to know none of that. You just have to copy/paste the steps from the rails-homepage (where they should be prominently listed, the lack thereof is the real bug). "hey, download this all-inclusive, up-to-date, guaranteed to work disk image straight from us!" Wait, how is that different from above? Yes, you may be done 2 minutes faster. But you just deprived yourself of at…

1. Install XCode and homebrew 2. sudo brew install {postgresql,rbenv,ruby-build} 3. Close terminal. Open terminal. 4. mkdir proj && cd proj && rbenv install 1.9.2-p290 && rbenv local 1.9.2-p290 5. gem install rails && rbenv rehash 6. rails new foo ------------------- "hey, download this all-inclusive, up-to-date, guaranteed to work disk image straight from us!" Wait, how is that different from above? ----------------…

Sounds like you're threatened some by this - it was hard for you, therefore it should always be hard for everyone for now and forever.

Yes, I'm threatened by this. But not in the way you think, because as shown above, it's not really hard. It's 5 lines. What's wrong with kids these days?

I'm threatened because I'm the guy who comes in to clean up after "junior programmers" who couldn't even be bothered to learn 5 lines to install their dev-environment and who consequently also don't have the slightest clue about basic realities such as "diskspace is finite" or "No, /Users/Bob/rails/tmp is not a valid path in production".

At least give the kids a chance to learn. Don't lure them with shortcuts that result in unsustainable habits that cause great frustration in the long run. Unlearning is harder than learning.

Rails with its false sense of simplicity is breeding plenty diletantes already as it is. We need less of that, not more.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#156

Post by ddagradi »

moe wrote: post #155
mgkimsal wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Install XCode and homebrew 2. sudo brew install {postgresql,rbenv,ruby-build} 3. Close terminal. Open terminal. 4. mkdir proj && cd proj && rbenv install 1.9.2-p290 && rbenv local 1.9.2-p290 5. gem install rails && rbenv rehash 6. rails new foo ------------------- "hey, download this all-inclusive, up-to-date, guaranteed to work disk image straight from us!" Wait, how is that different from above? ----------------…

Sounds like you're threatened some by this - it was hard for you, therefore it should always be hard for everyone for now and forever. Yes, I'm threatened by this. But not in the way you think, because as shown above, it's not really hard. It's 5 lines . What's wrong with kids these days? I'm threatened because I'm the guy who comes in to clean up after "junior programmers" who couldn't even be bothered to learn 5 li…

It's not "5 lines", and it's not about "junior programmers". My designers need to work with my Rails apps, and learning the intricacies of setting up a Rails stack is not their job description. Just like maintaining their dev environment isn't mine. There's a bigger issue here than "those kids will never learn things the hard way".

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#157

Post by BHSPitMonkey »

tzumby wrote: post #111
jacobian wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight: so a prolific, proven open source contributor makes some money, and the community gets a problem fixed. This is a bad thing? Who loses here? What if Yehuda's company gave him 25% of his time to work on open source - would that be different? He'd get that same $25k (or whatever), and the software would get built (and open sourced). Only difference I can see is the source of the money, so are…

The problem here is the ego, you have to notice how Yehuda put an accent on how important his contributions to rails 3 were. I'm not arguing they're not, but as Plato put it, when you think you reached the absolute wisdom you couldnt be further from it

Part of using Kickstarter (and IndieGoGo, and the others) is establishing that you're qualified to do what you say you'll do with the crowd's money. He did exactly what he was supposed to do.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#158

Post by chc »

NSMeta wrote: post #143
jacobian wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight: so a prolific, proven open source contributor makes some money, and the community gets a problem fixed. This is a bad thing? Who loses here? What if Yehuda's company gave him 25% of his time to work on open source - would that be different? He'd get that same $25k (or whatever), and the software would get built (and open sourced). Only difference I can see is the source of the money, so are…

I, for once, don't see a problem with getting paid doing open-source software. With kickstarter I get an assumption that if for some reason he won't raise enough money - he won't work on the project. That, in my opinion, is wrong. It shouldn't matter if one raises money or not, as long as you like what you're doing. Otherwise why bother in the first place?

This might just be me, but here's my point of view: I like writing software. It's pretty enjoyable. But you know what's more enjoyable? Eating. Having a roof over my head. Being able to pay for my wedding without selling any major organs. If the time I spend writing software detracts from those other things, I'm sorry, but the software either has to go or has to pay for itself. If you want to be absurdly altruistic, you are free to do as you will, but I don't think it's reasonable to demand it from Yehuda, especially as he's already given so much.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#159

Post by moe »

ddagradi wrote: post #156
moe wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you're threatened some by this - it was hard for you, therefore it should always be hard for everyone for now and forever. Yes, I'm threatened by this. But not in the way you think, because as shown above, it's not really hard. It's 5 lines . What's wrong with kids these days? I'm threatened because I'm the guy who comes in to clean up after "junior programmers" who couldn't even be bothered to learn 5 li…

It's not "5 lines", and it's not about "junior programmers". My designers need to work with my Rails apps, and learning the intricacies of setting up a Rails stack is not their job description. Just like maintaining their dev environment isn't mine. There's a bigger issue here than "those kids will never learn things the hard way".

It's not "5 lines"

Would you mind scrolling up to my original comment where I posted the exact 5 lines?

My designers need to work with my Rails apps

Then you should have noticed that installing rails is the least of your worries. Database seeds, missing dependencies, test-users, broken fixtures, broken mocks, missing external APIs, version control conflicts, gem screw-ups, failing migrations, rails upgrades, differences to the production setup. Those are the daily timesinks over here in the real world.

The initial rails installation doesn't even register in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#160

Post by sanderjd »

moe wrote: post #159
ddagradi wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "5 lines", and it's not about "junior programmers". My designers need to work with my Rails apps, and learning the intricacies of setting up a Rails stack is not their job description. Just like maintaining their dev environment isn't mine. There's a bigger issue here than "those kids will never learn things the hard way".

It's not "5 lines" Would you mind scrolling up to my original comment where I posted the exact 5 lines? My designers need to work with my Rails apps Then you should have noticed that installing rails is the least of your worries. Database seeds, missing dependencies, test-users, broken fixtures, broken mocks, missing external APIs, version control conflicts, gem screw-ups, failing migrations, rails upgrades , differe…

I can't tell what you're actually arguing for or against in this thread. There seem to be two different things:

1) The rails.app project wants to solve a problem that doesn't exist. There are a lot of comments here from other people who think getting started with rails is confusing, and who point out that your much-touted five steps are not complete, canonical, or easy, so I won't further beat that dead horse.

2) There are many harder problems you'll come across when doing rails professionally. This is incredibly true, nobody disagrees, but it's irrelevant to the rails.app project.

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