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Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

theguardian.com

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Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#151
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not what "racism" is. While its one way to define racism, the most general and eay to understand one is racism: > The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes. And that is what you're doing. Its not about oppression or discrimination, its about the (wrong) belief that each race has some intrinsic properties. When you start with this, you eventually end up putting people of different races on…

> The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes. / And that is what you're doing. I'm not sure where you got that from. Did you respond to the right message?

"You" as in, not you specifically, but you who you're arguing for (maybe this doesnt work in English, sorry!)

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#152
post #118
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The «master» to «main» change was totally unnecessary and B.S. imho. Even 15 years ago, when I started my professional journey (in Germany) there were a lot of people who were gay, trans and so on in the dev community … and nobody cared about it. We were all passioned about technologies and respected each other based on commitment/engagement/skill level. At the end most of the true full blood developers were always «…

> The «master» to «main» change was totally unnecessary and B.S. imho. If I recall correctly, the point of reflecting upon the usage of specific terms was not that every single person thought it was B.S. but that a minority might feel negatively impacted by them, and it took no trouble at all to accommodate them by switching to less charged terms. Basically it's the same argument behind not swearing at the workspace.…

But that's not even what "master" means in git. There is no "slave" branch.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#153
post #13

[flagged]

Like most things in the world, black and Black is not so black and white. There's a reason some people prefer to self-identify as capital B Black. Maybe look it up before dismissing it entirely.

CJR shared some perspectives in the process of explaining an update to their style guide: https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php

A piece from The Atlantic that goes deep: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/time-to-ca...

But also provides a good summary:

>> 'A good reason to capitalize the racial designation “black,” then, is precisely that black, in this sense, is not a natural category but a social one—a collective identity—with a particular history. (“Race is psychology, not biology” is a formulation Du Bois once offered.) What’s more, the very label “black” plays a role in generating that identity.'

I identify as a lot of things before I ever consider the pigment in my skin ("white as the driven snow,") but that's easy for me because it's the one thing about me that's never been under attack. I also really prefer not to associate myself with most people who make a huge deal about being capital W White.

My various European lineages (and Cherokee) crushed under it are more interesting to me, and genealogical records for them are much easier to find than it often is for people who go with Black. Sometimes Black is all people have. I can trace most of the components of my particular white back thousands of years to specific people in specific villages. There's history in our histories that informs the way we identify.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#154
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The «master» to «main» change was totally unnecessary and B.S. imho. Even 15 years ago, when I started my professional journey (in Germany) there were a lot of people who were gay, trans and so on in the dev community … and nobody cared about it. We were all passioned about technologies and respected each other based on commitment/engagement/skill level. At the end most of the true full blood developers were always «…

> and nobody cared about it you see, this is the gift of American progressive cultural imperialism. Suddenly, the only historiography that can exist in the world is that of American trustafarians who try to minimize their shame of being born wealthy heirs of the slave-owner class by spreading the shame on white immigrants that arrived way after slavery got disbanded. And once you set the precedence that you can at wi…

I'd say at least some Europeans have their own guilt to deal with, if we're saying the sins of the parents should be visited on the children... Not like the US has a monopoly on terrible history

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes. / And that is what you're doing. I'm not sure where you got that from. Did you respond to the right message?

"You" as in, not you specifically, but you who you're arguing for (maybe this doesnt work in English, sorry!)

That is definitely not what I'm arguing for. I think you completely misunderstood my comment.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#156
post #152
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The «master» to «main» change was totally unnecessary and B.S. imho. If I recall correctly, the point of reflecting upon the usage of specific terms was not that every single person thought it was B.S. but that a minority might feel negatively impacted by them, and it took no trouble at all to accommodate them by switching to less charged terms. Basically it's the same argument behind not swearing at the workspace.…

But that's not even what "master" means in git. There is no "slave" branch.

> But that's not even what "master" means in git. There is no "slave" branch.

I think you're trying to cherry-picking debatable examples as strawmen. The central argument was not that some inclusive terms may or may not extend to all applications. The central argument being made in this thread by anti-inclusiveness proponents is that each and every single proposal to use terms that are not racist or bigoted should be rejected, regardless of their suitability.

In addition, I don't see anyone even try to argue that "master" branch is suited of even makes sense, while alternative terms such as "mainline", "development", "production", or even "release" are extensively used.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#157
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is also a technical improvement. main is easier to type. It takes a lot of effort to overcome the inertia of a default, so even if the reasoning is a bit suspect the outcome is going to be a win eventually.

Inertia is not merely caused by a psychological block, overcoming it carries real tangible costs. There are countless examples where technically superior solutions exist, but the benefits they offer do not outweigh the cost of overcoming inertia. Consider the QWERTY keyboard, which is far from the most efficient design. JavaScript is notorious for its quirks. Unix commands often lack intuitiveness, suffering from poo…

> Inertia is not merely caused by a psychological block, overcoming it carries real tangible costs. There are countless examples where technically superior solutions exist, but the benefits they offer do not outweigh the cost of overcoming inertia.

What colossal cost do you see in granting users the choice of, say, picking their default branch name instead of being forced to use "master"?

What cost do you see in referring to "blacklists" as "allowlist" instead?

Have you ever noticed that critical projects like Kubernetes managed to adopt clear and unambiguous concepts such as "control plane node" and "worker node" without making dubious remarks regarding "inertia"?

Any argument regarding "inertia" frankly sounds like a lame excuse to stick with bigoted and racially-charged terms without any valid reason other than a refusal to extend the most basic of common courtesies.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#158
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The «master» to «main» change was totally unnecessary and B.S. imho. Even 15 years ago, when I started my professional journey (in Germany) there were a lot of people who were gay, trans and so on in the dev community … and nobody cared about it. We were all passioned about technologies and respected each other based on commitment/engagement/skill level. At the end most of the true full blood developers were always «…

As a black person, the switch from master to main, is the most condescendingly racist thing that has been widely adopted in tech. It says "black people are too stupid to understand context. We (small group of white people) must protect them against words." Another thing it does, is that it promotes the identification of blacks as slaves when all races have been enslaved (and continue to this day).

Hey, maybe the white dude feels icky about the master/slave thing. Maybe it's not about the opinions of black people but words we want in common usage in our societies.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#159
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inertia is not merely caused by a psychological block, overcoming it carries real tangible costs. There are countless examples where technically superior solutions exist, but the benefits they offer do not outweigh the cost of overcoming inertia. Consider the QWERTY keyboard, which is far from the most efficient design. JavaScript is notorious for its quirks. Unix commands often lack intuitiveness, suffering from poo…

> Inertia is not merely caused by a psychological block, overcoming it carries real tangible costs. There are countless examples where technically superior solutions exist, but the benefits they offer do not outweigh the cost of overcoming inertia. What colossal cost do you see in granting users the choice of, say, picking their default branch name instead of being forced to use "master"? What cost do you see in refe…

The costs were moderate, not colossal. But they were still bigger than the benefits, which were tiny to non-existant. Because 99.99% of people do not actually see a "master branch" as a racially-charged or bigoted term.

In the case of Kubernetes, I suppose those terms were chosen from the beginning so there was no cost of switching. And hence why no one complained about it.

Which incidentally supports my claim: that people were upset about the cost of changing rather than because of their secret admiration for slavery.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#160
post #156
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not even what "master" means in git. There is no "slave" branch.

> But that's not even what "master" means in git. There is no "slave" branch. I think you're trying to cherry-picking debatable examples as strawmen. The central argument was not that some inclusive terms may or may not extend to all applications. The central argument being made in this thread by anti-inclusiveness proponents is that each and every single proposal to use terms that are not racist or bigoted should be…

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