Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ender's Game Review

plover.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 102 posts

Re: Ender's Game Review

#51

Post by DocSavage »

brandnewlow wrote: post #38

His basic argument holds truth though, there are pornographic elements in most created works, i.e. elements created strictly to gratify or comfort the reader in some specific way. This is why we instinctually pigeonhole and look down upon genre fiction writers, because their primary task is to comfort the reader, not to challenge or engage in a dialogue with him. Let's break down the different genre's and see what be…

"Genre fiction writers... primary task is to comfort the reader, not to challenge or engage in dialogue with him"

By "comfort" if you mean "entertain," then yes, all (not just genre) fiction writers should tell a good story if you want a wide audience.

The attempt to boil down entire genres to a single fetish (belief system) gratification is extremely dismissive. Sure, you can find examples of formulaic, bad prose in genres, just as you can find excellent writing. A number of authors try to get their work classified away from science-fiction or another genre just because of this stigma.

The linked article claims Ender's game is "porn" but his definition of porn is not like mine. Porn has little narrative structure. There's almost no story. There's no 3D characterization or character development. There's no conflict.

If the definition of porn becomes any work with elements that gratify a reader's particular needs, then which successful works aren't porn? The most erudite, soul-searching work gratifies a philosophical fetish.

And if your definition of value is tied to creating insight or facilitating discussion, then that's a clear difference between a work like Ender's Game and the serial romance books your mom reads.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#52

Post by unalone »

Alex3917 wrote: post #39
unalone wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also the secret to getting an interesting plot easily. It comes up so often in fiction because it's interesting. And it's possible to get things more complex and keep it interesting, but it's much, much harder. Even Ulysses, which is famous for being about an ordinary person going about an ordinary day, has the main character a Jew in Ireland - which is rare - and adds Dedalus, who is too smart for his own goo…

I have to disagree. The idea that we're going to wake up one day and something is going to happen that's going to make us better or more important than everyone else is pretty much the dictionary definition of masturbatory.

I don't know about you, but I'm already better and more important than everyone else. :-P

But I think that Card needed that character for his story. I've read his original novella, and Ender's not quite as ridiculous in that one, and it doesn't work as well. Card needs a completely outstanding hero or his idea doesn't work.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#53

Post by unalone »

johnyzee wrote: post #36
unalone wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect that he can write a book without selling dogma. I love Enchantment and Pastwatch, even if the Ender series has faded with time.

About the faded in time thing, I always felt Ender's Game was surprisingly precise in predicting the rise of online discussion communities, and how their anonymous celebrities can influence a lot of people, while just being a bunch of kids in their bedrooms. The book's from 1985 after all.

Yeah. That part's very impressive. Although, frankly, I'd take Fake Steve Jobs over Locke and Demosthenes any day.

I hadn't thought of that before. I'll have to read over that chapter again and check that out.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#54

Post by Alex3917 »

icky wrote: post #49
Alex3917 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree. The idea that we're going to wake up one day and something is going to happen that's going to make us better or more important than everyone else is pretty much the dictionary definition of masturbatory.

Read your Joseph Campbell before categorically dismissing half of all fiction in human history.

I've pretty much dismissed all fiction for the reason that unalone mentions: fiction is designed to be interesting. And I don't like reading stuff that's interesting. I mean I do occasionally, but it rarely holds my attention.

edit: I have wanted to read Campbell for awhile though, maybe that will be my next book.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#55

Post by icky »

Alex3917 wrote: post #54
icky wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read your Joseph Campbell before categorically dismissing half of all fiction in human history.

I've pretty much dismissed all fiction for the reason that unalone mentions: fiction is designed to be interesting. And I don't like reading stuff that's interesting. I mean I do occasionally, but it rarely holds my attention. edit: I have wanted to read Campbell for awhile though, maybe that will be my next book.

> And I don't like reading stuff that's interesting. I mean I do occasionally, but it rarely holds my attention.

I can totally relate: I hate food that tastes good, and breathing oxygen.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#56

Post by chaostheory »

icky wrote: post #48
chaostheory wrote: post #24

since we're on the subject - what do you guys think of the essay 'Ender and Hitler: Sympathy for the Superman'? http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html Summary: Ender's Game is an apologia for Hitler.

[SPOILERS and SHAKY HYPOTHESIS below] I think that if you look at the claims in the essay through the lens of Card's Mormonism, a very different picture emerges. Ender's celibacy until marriage is [ostensibly] normal in Mormon society, and the age at which he married then is just a number, which falls within the realm of coincidence. You'll note that Ender killed the Buggers without knowledge of what he was doing, th…

given what happened to the essay's author at a convention, your explanation makes the most sense. I just still find it strange that the sequel had Ender going to a Brazilian planet...

Re: Ender's Game Review

#57

Post by unalone »

icky wrote: post #55
Alex3917 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've pretty much dismissed all fiction for the reason that unalone mentions: fiction is designed to be interesting. And I don't like reading stuff that's interesting. I mean I do occasionally, but it rarely holds my attention. edit: I have wanted to read Campbell for awhile though, maybe that will be my next book.

> And I don't like reading stuff that's interesting. I mean I do occasionally, but it rarely holds my attention. I can totally relate: I hate food that tastes good, and breathing oxygen.

Man was that snarky.

You read fiction for the things that interest you. If an "interesting" thing doesn't hold your attention, it's not interesting. I find that some authors remain interesting upon multiple rereads, while others fall apart rapidly. But fiction can say things that nonfiction can't, because with fiction you can create an entire artificial construct just to prove a point.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#58

Post by unalone »

pg wrote: post #42
jimbokun wrote: post #23

Ugh. My kingdom for a submission down arrow. Citing Jesus and mocking Christianity as part of reviewing Ender's game totally jumps the shark. This is such an obvious troll, I am utterly disappointed that Hacker News has collectively up-modded this close to the top of the front page (as I write this). I thought this community was better than this.

I am utterly disappointed that Hacker News has collectively up-modded this close to the top of the front page (as I write this). I thought this community was better than this. Yeah, I thought the same thing. I considered killing it, but it didn't seem quite deliberately dishonest enough. I just took "it's porn" out of the title. I suspect that's why this got so much attention.

That was definitely part of it. But it's also that Ender's Game is such a widespread book, and that its showing up here was slightly unexpected and unprompted. The fact that it appeared was curious in and of itself.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#59

Post by unalone »

chaostheory wrote: post #56
icky wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[SPOILERS and SHAKY HYPOTHESIS below] I think that if you look at the claims in the essay through the lens of Card's Mormonism, a very different picture emerges. Ender's celibacy until marriage is [ostensibly] normal in Mormon society, and the age at which he married then is just a number, which falls within the realm of coincidence. You'll note that Ender killed the Buggers without knowledge of what he was doing, th…

given what happened to the essay's author at a convention, your explanation makes the most sense. I just still find it strange that the sequel had Ender going to a Brazilian planet...

Well, Card says in his intro to that book that part of it was his fascination with the language and the culture. And I think that the Portugese was what made Speaker such a fascinating read.

I don't think Card is trying to excuse Hitler. I really don't think so. Not even subconsciously. And I thought upon reading that article that it was interesting, but rather misguided. The OP response made a lot of sense, considering Card is very likely a Mormon. But even then, I think it was subconscious on his part.

Re: Ender's Game Review

#60

Post by icky »

unalone wrote: post #57
icky wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I don't like reading stuff that's interesting. I mean I do occasionally, but it rarely holds my attention. I can totally relate: I hate food that tastes good, and breathing oxygen.

Man was that snarky. You read fiction for the things that interest you. If an "interesting" thing doesn't hold your attention, it's not interesting. I find that some authors remain interesting upon multiple rereads, while others fall apart rapidly. But fiction can say things that nonfiction can't, because with fiction you can create an entire artificial construct just to prove a point.

> Man was that snarky.

Yes. We methane-breathing anti-gourmets are known for our occasional lapses into snarkishness.

Post reply on HN