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Kickstarter: rails.app

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Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#121
I don't know. There are many good observations about what happened to Rails the last years in the comments. Rails is complicated and to get fluent in Rails takes some time. But this complexity came with a great flexibility. And that's a sign that we are facing a phenomenal ecosystem. I admit starting rails is frustrating, so many new concepts but everything like rvm has a reason why and even beginners will realize this quickly.

Yehuda's approach reminds me of the early days of webdevelopment where you could install a WAMP stack with one click on your windows systems. I never liked those one-click-installers—you don't know what happens to your system and deinstalling was a nightmare with still running db servers somewhere for years.

You can't wipe away Rails complicated entry with such an one click-installer. After you installed Rails with one click things aren't getting easier your still have to figure out next steps and which frameworks to choose (i.e. ERB or HAML, SCSS or LESS, MySQL or Postgre, etc.). Or something breaks within rvm: with an yehuda's approach you are completely clueless because you don't know anything about rvm, gemsets because the installer did all the work for you.

Sometimes there is even too much magic in Rails. I am still wondering if ActiveRecord is too much abstraction and if there are better more direct ORMs like DataMapper, I am used to ActiveRecord but still I can not fluently create data models, there's always something I forget, using the plural or singular, saving the updated migration, rolling back the migration, etc. Otherwise it's far beyond any ORM from other Frameworks I have ever seen in terms of speed. And its usage in Ruby is very consistent. Also Rails shell commands are very consistent, once you understand the rails syntax (like rails generate or destroy something you can quickly build anything in minutes), I tried several times to find something similar with python/django but there the entries seemed to me even more complicated, don't follow any system and felt restricted, i.e. Django's automatic Backend (no offense, i know not enough about django and python to say anything serious but that was just my first impression).

Another last great example of Rails: once you managed to install Rails, just put haml, less, less-bootstrap-rails and simple_form in your gemfile and run bundle. with this setup you can build web apps in minutes with perfect design and they are fully customizable. some years ago you needed hours or days to get to similar results. It takes time to get there but once you are there you have the power.

this pace and variety in the rails ecosystem comes from so many talented people who contribute. trying to set one standard for how things are done would slow down this pace.

finally, I think that Yehuda doesn't want to raise money, he just wants to get attention and the approval that he had the right idea.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#122
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and even if it were only 5 it would be worthwhile to make it easier Seriously? 1. Install XCode and homebrew 2. sudo brew install {postgresql,rbenv,ruby-build} 3. Close terminal. Open terminal. 4. mkdir proj && cd proj && rbenv install 1.9.2-p290 && rbenv local 1.9.2-p290 5. gem install rails && rbenv rehash 6. rails new foo Honestly, we can argue if this was 5 steps or 8. We can also argue if 'rbenv rehash' should b…

Dude, take a step back and forget that you know this stuff already and do it professionally. That list is not easy and far from obvious, even for real programmers coming from other environments, let alone for actual programming beginners. Your list is far from canonical even at this very moment and hasn't even been common for very long. To figure out your list, I have to: 1) know that homebrew is the "right" way to i…

Exactly. It's frustrating. See http://rwilcox.tumblr.com/post/20094754364/its-hard-to-insta.... It's a "story in 20 parts" about what can go wrong with a Raila install on OS X.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#123
OSS development has to be funded somewhere and to date it has been the benevolence of bigger organisations that have awarded grants or developer time. This gives the opportunity for a developer to offer to solve a problem and for the community to vote with their pockets. It empowers developers and the community to get behind a problem space and if people don't want it it won't happen.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#124
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and even if it were only 5 it would be worthwhile to make it easier Seriously? 1. Install XCode and homebrew 2. sudo brew install {postgresql,rbenv,ruby-build} 3. Close terminal. Open terminal. 4. mkdir proj && cd proj && rbenv install 1.9.2-p290 && rbenv local 1.9.2-p290 5. gem install rails && rbenv rehash 6. rails new foo Honestly, we can argue if this was 5 steps or 8. We can also argue if 'rbenv rehash' should b…

Dude, take a step back and forget that you know this stuff already and do it professionally. That list is not easy and far from obvious, even for real programmers coming from other environments, let alone for actual programming beginners. Your list is far from canonical even at this very moment and hasn't even been common for very long. To figure out your list, I have to: 1) know that homebrew is the "right" way to i…

Actually I agree with previous commenter. These steps are easy and only take like 10minutes and give great power handling versions and gemsets to projects.

If you are someone who doesn't know what it means you should learn. Isn't that what a programmer needs to do?

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#125
Im all for opening doors to newbies, and I think udacity and coursera are leading the way in that regard.

But if people desire to become programmers is it really that bad to have them come in contact with a little bit of configuration and head scratching.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#126
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you pointed out, your problem and the problem he is trying to solve here are completely different. Your problem definitely exists, and lots of people are working hard on solving it, whether that means those working on improving chef and puppet themselves, or on other less flashy configuration management systems, or on new projects that are attempting to improve on the existing solutions in a more fundamental way.…

and even if it were only 5 it would be worthwhile to make it easier Seriously? 1. Install XCode and homebrew 2. sudo brew install {postgresql,rbenv,ruby-build} 3. Close terminal. Open terminal. 4. mkdir proj && cd proj && rbenv install 1.9.2-p290 && rbenv local 1.9.2-p290 5. gem install rails && rbenv rehash 6. rails new foo Honestly, we can argue if this was 5 steps or 8. We can also argue if 'rbenv rehash' should b…

But in practice it's almost never that simple.

Install Xcode; 1) Install in App Store 2) Still not actually installed, start it, that finished the installation 3) You still don't have what you need, find where they've moved "install command line tools" to and install that 4)The compiler you have isn't the right one as Lion no longer has GCC as its default compiler and you want to use RVM 5) ......

Once you've done it a few times it's not that hard and you get used to knowing where to look for problems but the first few times it can easily be half a day lost just trying to get the environment working.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#127
post #72

Please excuse the language, but what the fuck is happening to our world right now? What the hell has happened to "I want to build something, so I'll build it"? Now you have to [1]pay $100 for the privilege of reading the mailing list for an open source project? And some guy needs $25,000 just to start it? Guys this is...not good. Can you imagine if apache's kickstarter never got funded? If the linux kernel's didn't?…

A lot of programmers have hangups about money. Consider whether you do as well, and if so whether this is something you've purposefully chosen because you really like what it does for your life or whether it is just accidental. If it is accidental, you may want to consider stopping.

a) $25k is not a lot of money for very well-known programmers. There are fairly straightforward methods to get that much in a month (a salaried job), a week (contracting+), or a day (training event, $500 a head).

+ Stipulate that in addition to Rails he has at least one talent which makes money and this is not unreasonable at all.

b) There was no time at which OSS was not predominantly the work product of the global rich employed at corporations. This is observably true for Rails, since the list of contributors since DHH extracted it is both public and short. The Rails core team works on Rails like it is their job because...

c) ... Rails was designed to, and succeeds at, making companies great piles of money by increasing the efficiency at which they can churn out CRUD apps. Please note that is in no way a criticism. Apps running on Rails go from BCC (five figures a year) to Basecamp (eight figures a year and will probably hit nine eventually unless they already did).

d) OSS developers making money by it - I.e. The traditional accepted way to write it - does not make you personally worse off, because it increases software available to you. You may perceive that people will listen to you less because monied interests will drown out your voice. This is irrational: since the $100 you think is a lot of money only buys maybe 30 minutes of programmer time anyhow, the opinions that mattered in OSS were already those of companies which coul actually pay salaries, and someone freer with their last $100 than you are will only have epsilon more impact on "the community" than you when compared to IBM (a consulting company which staffed most Linux development) or Google (an advertising company which directly or indirectly pays the salaries of the majority of programmers working on either of the two big OSS browsers.) apache's Kickstarter was IBM realizing that they'd happily pay a billion dollars to have IIS not become the dominant server platform so they proceeded to do so.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#128
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in Python's console, if you hit "q" or escape or ctrl-C or something, you get an error message like the 'source :rubygems' error message, which says "hit ctrl-D to escape." Ah, I think I know what you're talking about. I wasn't using Python back then, and I know exit() was added after that (the only way to leave the console before that was to Ctrl-D), but when you type "exit" in the console, Python responds: Use ex…

Anyone ever hit up Linus to add the 'git statsu' command? That would really help me out.

You can create an alias for it:

git config –-global alias.statsu status

I have mine aliased to 'st'.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#129
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in Python's console, if you hit "q" or escape or ctrl-C or something, you get an error message like the 'source :rubygems' error message, which says "hit ctrl-D to escape." Ah, I think I know what you're talking about. I wasn't using Python back then, and I know exit() was added after that (the only way to leave the console before that was to Ctrl-D), but when you type "exit" in the console, Python responds: Use ex…

Anyone ever hit up Linus to add the 'git statsu' command? That would really help me out.

I'm assuming this is a (weak) joke, but in case you're genuinely wondering:

    git config --global alias.statsu status

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#130
post #72

Please excuse the language, but what the fuck is happening to our world right now? What the hell has happened to "I want to build something, so I'll build it"? Now you have to [1]pay $100 for the privilege of reading the mailing list for an open source project? And some guy needs $25,000 just to start it? Guys this is...not good. Can you imagine if apache's kickstarter never got funded? If the linux kernel's didn't?…

Hmmm ... Romanticism at work?

As far as I can remember open source always has been a sponsored or subsidized undertaking as far as it concerns meaningful or central projects.

Without it, the linux kernel would be only teaching material on Finnish universities, MySQL would not exist, Erlang would be a Danish mathematician and a waiting cue formula. The basis for the ASF is the web server which was developed at the NCSA. So you're on the right track with the "Can you imagine..." question.

Whats wrong with someone who want to make a meaningful addition to OS and asks money to be able to give full attention to the project? Isn't that more realistic than to hope for loosely coordinated efforts of spare time developers?

[note: I use this term not to criticize the persons in question but to point at the focus of the contribution. Also scratching-own-itch projects can easily err on the wrong side of the pareto ratio]

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