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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#341
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... something is making them uncomfortable, and so they attack it on 'rational' grounds. Most likely, they aren’t even aware of the gut reaction fueling their logic." Twenty years after writing Snow Crash , Neal Stephenson, the Arbiter of Badassness, wrote in Reamde : "It was then that she cut him off in midsentence and said that it was over. She said it with a certainty and a conviction in her voice and her face th…

At least partially that might well be because society perpetuates the stereotype that gut-reactions are a female thing, guys are really bad at listening to their heart, and in general emotionally stunted. At some point, it becomes internalized - and you see men simply ignoring emotions and feelings that they're well aware of. Sure, it's dressed in sugar coating ("guys are rational !"), but it's still affecting behavi…

Ignoring your gut or your heart is a behavior that can be unlearned through various means, including meditation. Being mindful of your emotions has nothing to do with society and stereotypes, and everything to do with your own habits of the mind and experiencing reality as is.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought my joke was lighthearted enough, and metatextual enough, that it wouldn't offend anybody or make anybody feel uncomfortable. If my joke made anyone feel like their voice wasn't welcome in this conversation, then I apologize, and I'd like you to tell me so that I don't make this mistake in the future. My apology does not extend to you, eaten_by_a_grue, because you're not complaining about my joke, you're cal…

Not only are you a hypocrite for earlier claiming that all such instances of the joke are inherently objectifying women; > Remember that sexism is about the reinforcement of cultural stereotypes, rather than being just about gross bigotry or discrimination. What's sexist is that people assume, in a workplace, that jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable. Those jokes make me a little uncomfortable even in a c…

If you wish to engage in civil debate, you need to add the ability to identify and understand the concepts of context, nuance, and satire to your social toolbox. As it is, you are simply lashing out angrily at what you don't understand, contributing nothing of value.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've said at least a few times that you think the bot was designed to annoy, but I'm still curious as to what you think was or was intended to be annoying (let alone impolite) about it. Is there a way, in your eyes, that she could have been more polite without saying nothing at all?

Well, the intent to annoy is an impolite notion. Aside from handling it with management instead of escalating the prank war, I don't see a lot of terribly polite ways above and beyond what she'd already done. As for why I think it was intended to annoy, I suppose from my perspective at least, that's the obvious conclusion. A bot annoyed her, so she wrote her own. From the text in the blog post, she seems to take plea…

Oh, wow. You are the false equivalency master.

The problem here is not that the bot is annoying, the problem is that the bot is sexist. Responding to sexist remarks with something that signifies that those remarks are sexist is not the same as making sexist remarks. Whether or not those two bots are annoying is a different issue that is now used as an excuse to rationalize hating on the second bot.

How can you be so blind to that? I’m sitting here in disbelief.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#344
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a child who has all the toys is told they have to share, some children will throw a hissy fit. This is an apt metaphore for a "men's rights" movement which rares it's head when people talking about giving women as much power as men.

Men are as likely to be raped, but their (prison) rapes are considered funny in our society, whereas female rapes are considered a grave crime. Men are generally considered more disposable in dangerous situations ("let the women and children go"). Stereotypes and gender roles regarding men are much more rigid, and challenging them has much less cultural buy-in than challenging gender roles with women. Men are much mo…

I agree with everything you said but the liberals part... I think we should be careful to assume that all liberals are feminists. This can turn off the liberals that have noticed the misandry in feminism and are trying to learn more.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stereotypes of men as rapists and child molesters Whoa. It's obvious when you say it, but I've never even thought about it before-- I can't think of a single joke about that. Lots of jokes about rapists and child molesters, of course, but none about "men" who are implicitly the above. Can you think of any examples at all? Coming up with a few examples that actually hit (white, cis) men where it hurts could be a…

From my group of friends: I have a friend who (jokingly) characterizes her boyfriend's amorous advances when he's drunk as "rape-y." When my male friend mentioned Emma Watson was hot in the most recent Harry Potter movies (when she was 18+), our female friends ribbed him about being attracted to children. When an awkward guy tries too hard to hit on a girl, we might joke that his advances are "kinda rape-y." My femal…

You might want to tell your girlfriend that joking about domestic violence is very dangerous to you as a male.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#346
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Yes, quick quick, down-vote the heretic -- we haven't progressed much from Salem, have we?) >Important things like women making less money than men, being more subjected to media objectification, being the target of laws that want to deny them rights because we still have a problem accepting that women are exactly equal to us? Funny how you seem to have the missed the part where I SPECIFICALLY write: " It's not like…

> down-vote the heretic > "forbidden thought" > I don't care about "thought crimes". Bad news: you're not the brave thinker that you seem to think you are (in fact your "forbidden thought" is probably more common than the alternative that we're presenting!). People aren't disagreeing with you because they think it's morally wrong to think the way you do, they disagree because they think you're wrong .

>Bad news: you're not the brave thinker that you seem to think you are (in fact your "forbidden thought" is probably more common than the alternative that we're presenting!).

The forbidden-ess has nothing to do with the general popularity of the thought. (In other places of the world for example --and I'm not talking about misogynistic backwoods--, nobody gives a flying duck for the "alternative you're presenting").

It's forbidden in the context of a certain US population group, in the context of HN, etc.

>People aren't disagreeing with you because they think it's morally wrong to think the way you do, they disagree because they think you're wrong.

Only when it's a moral issue, those two options are not different at all. You can't just be wrong on a moral issue --we're not talking about measuring things here--, only morally wrong.

Anyway, most people "disagree" with me because they have been conditioned to disagree. Those same people would upvote me to the sky if it was the seventies, and probably for the same wrong reasons they downvote now, i.e no independent thinking.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#347
There have been complaints that we have too many bots in the channel now. There have been complaints about it spamming the channel. There were several “Make them shut up!” responses. These are not reactions I have seen the other bots elicit, certainly not with such intensity.

I'm curious whether there were bots responding to bots before. I personally find bots that regularly talk to other bots several degrees more annoying than plain bots.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#348
post #28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find the most fascinating is that she did everything exactly right and people still feel like she did something wrong. She didn't go to her supervisor and she didn't turn it into a drama. Instead she fought the problem in its own arena by making a IRC-bot to combat the problem, and not only that: the IRC-bot is only selectively used in the exact situation that is seen as problematic and it does so by writing e…

Really? What do you want? We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave, because it's rude to tell people there's something innately wrong with their behavior. Also it takes so much time and effort on our parts to try and behave like better people that it hardly seems like we should bother. The problem, for many people, is not that the issue is being handled indelicately. It's…

How do you define sexist?

Do you define sexist to mean the belief that one gender should be able to violate the rights of the other? That one gender is better than the other?

That one gender is different from the other?

Under your definition, why is sexism bad?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#349
post #264
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that bothers me about any and all up-vote/down-vote systems is exactly what has happened to Batista. He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. This just feeds into the creation of a culture bubble and never lets anyone in the communities views get challenged. As a side note, I would like to clarify that my view on the issue is: A) Not rele…

Batista is not being downvoted because they're expressing a differing opinion. They're being downvoted because they're not taking the time to fully consider the issues and engage in reasonable debate. As an example, from their first post, they suggest that it's not legitimate to worry about this sort of problem because larger problems exist. This form of argument is not only blindly hypocritical (that is, if the argu…

>As an example, from their first post, they suggest that it's not legitimate to worry about this sort of problem because larger problems exist. This form of argument is not only blindly hypocritical (that is, if the arguer believed it, they would not be engaging in the subdebate but rather be working to resolve the larger problem)

Which I am. I have a somewhat popular blog in my language on the "larger problems", and am member of several political groups on those issues. I also comment on HN on larger issues, when the topic warrants it.

What strikes me as idiotic is seeing people blogging about the "horrible problem of sexism" (what's more with examples like some programming convention where some presenter has a scantily clad girl in the slides, or the "that's what she said" jokes, or some poster on some hackathon that mentioned pretty waitresses --i.e bs--), whereas the same people and blogs never seem to mention any problem of more importance.

>but intrinsically ridiculous -- it supposes that it's not legitimate to discuss any issue while "worse" problems persist.

If your house was on fire, it would be ridiculous to discuss the fading color of the fence or that you have to mow the lawn. Without priorities, discussing problems by itself is idiotic. This very notion of yours gave rise to the concept of "first world problem", I concept with which I fully agree.

>They then literally compare their own downvoting to the Salem witch trials (the irony of which is beyond belief, and further calls into question their sincerity)

I fail to see the irony. Is it because the victims of the witch trials were women, and I (according to your reading) said something against women? I thought the message from the Salem witch trials was: "do not burn/beat/abuse/downvote people about how they conduct themselves and think" ("[the first accused] was described as not living a puritan lifestyle for she wore black clothing and odd costumes which was against the puritan code").

>and additionally claim that proportion of women in tech is "not a serious issue in its manifestation or it's consequences at all"

Am I not allowed to think that? Or is it only that I'm not allowed to make that claim?

What are the serious repercussions of less women in tech? Are there also serious repercussions of less women in the myriads of jobs there are less women? Or of less men in the myriads of jobs where there are less men?

Most women are not fascinated with shiny blinking gadgets and Star Trek, so they don't tend to choose a career path with the same criteria as men. Women took the smart path and chose biology --where the future big money are--, instead of sweating it coding mongo clients in node.js for 14 hours a day to maybe win the startup lottery.

I'd be much more worried about people who WANT and CANT be in tech (like the homeless, the poor, etc), rather than people that have the option and chose not to.

You have this a-priory theory based on ideals (and not empirical evidence) that women must necessarily be equally inclined to select an IT BSc, so you have to blow things like "sexism in IT" out of proportion to justify it not being so. As if, men and women in high school applying for college already know how it is working in an IT shop or in a startup, and that it includes sexism.

>They also fall into a really standard "I'm just expressing my opinion" backtrack, which is particularly ironic given that their initial complaint was that people were expressing their opinion on this topic rather than doing something more worthwhile.

Now, my initial complaint was that people were expressing their opinion on this topic rather than EXPRESSING THEIR OPINION on something more worthwhile. But even if it was what you mention, I still fail to see the irony.

You could be right or wrong in doing so, but there's absolutely no irony in trying to get people to stop complaining about what you consider a non-issue and doing something more worthwhile instead. For, as you see it:

Complaining about non issue: no benefit to society. Complaining about people complaining about non issue: the benefit of getting people back to real issues.

>Regardless of their viewpoint, they're not participating in reasonable intellectual discourse. We're not obligated to argue with someone who's plainly not interested in having an actual argument, and the up/down-voting is working as it should in this instance (I'm certainly not saying it works as it should in all instances, but this is pretty clear).

Actually you're just taking the easy way out and misread my arguments with prejudice. On top, it's you who are not interested in conversation. Noticed how ALL of your arguments are about my argumentation as argumentation (i.e meta) and NONE OF THEM is about my argumentation as substance? I.e you nitpick my argumentation style, but you never add a counter-claim. Probably because you already think what you believe on the matter to be some sort of immutable physical law.

That is, I gave several arguments, talked about nurture, statistical preferences for other fields, how (any) sexism in the workplace is not known to those applying for college IT, and still women are less there, etc. What have YOU counter-argued on the matter?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#350
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that bothers me about any and all up-vote/down-vote systems is exactly what has happened to Batista. He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. This just feeds into the creation of a culture bubble and never lets anyone in the communities views get challenged. As a side note, I would like to clarify that my view on the issue is: A) Not rele…

> He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. He's being downvoted not because of his opinion, but because of the way he chose to present it. And, he's whining about downvotes. Read what he's writing. It's downright rude. > I'll be down-voted myself anyway for even daring to defend someone’s right to express their opinion however. No, and suggesting s…

>Read what he's writing. It's downright rude.

Can you point to the rude parts? Or is that too much to ask?

>Learn to discuss matters like an adult, and you won't have this issue.

Actually most of the discussion on the issue is like that of touchy 20 year olds.

Adults dont "down-vote" on disagreement.

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