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Unions work

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Re: Unions work

#181

Post by AlbertCory »

1propionyl wrote: post #125
AlbertCory wrote: post #32

Where does that amazing 59% come from? Oh yes: a survey the AFL-CIO conducted, with no details provided: " In the early 2000s the AFL-CIO Department for Professional Employees started conducting survey of tech workers across the country found. In 2004, the survey showed that just 33% supported unionizing their workplace. By 2016, that had grown to 59%." The only "survey" that counts is the actual election for union r…

You would think so, but there tends to be pretty significant bias in union card campaigns and authorization votes. Strike authorizations tend to be even higher. People who don't support the campaigns tend to just not vote, but there's also a significant number of people who just don't find out. A better "survey" would be the number who actually sign union cards in workplaces with mandatory union orientations (meaning…

You want to abolish the secret ballot election. Not a good look for you.

Re: Unions work

#182

Post by neon_electro »

treis wrote: post #174
neon_electro wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are working to fight the two tier wage structure you speak of; are you aware? UPS/Teamsters is one such example.

Because after 15 years the balance of power has tipped from those who sold out to those that were sold.

Ok, so can you explain how that shift in the balance of power does NOT invalidate your parent point?

Re: Unions work

#183

Post by pydry »

sershe wrote: post #126
callmeal wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would bet that Tesla today can have a high operational margin in comparison with Ford or GM. Of course they can, and we know where that margin comes from: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/18/tesla-wor... Ambulances have been called more than 100 times since 2014 for workers experiencing fainting spells, dizziness, seizures, abnormal breathing and chest pains, according to incident reports obtained b…

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The most violent attack on American soil since the civil war was when strike breakers with a private air (yes, really) force bombed strikers in the Battle of Blair mountain:

https://www.history.com/news/americas-largest-labor-uprising...

Sympathy for these strikers who were the subject of violent attacks by the 1% was key to the rise of Union sympathy in the United Statesm This subsequently the new deal and eventually the rise of the middle class (something that is now being steadily destroyed).

That kind of violence against peaceful strikers will probably happen again.

When greed and profit meets a desire for a fair wage and standing up for one's rights, ordinary workers eventually die at the hands of strikebreakers - just as the workers at Blair mountain did.

Re: Unions work

#184

Post by lamontcg »

sershe wrote: post #126
callmeal wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would bet that Tesla today can have a high operational margin in comparison with Ford or GM. Of course they can, and we know where that margin comes from: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/18/tesla-wor... Ambulances have been called more than 100 times since 2014 for workers experiencing fainting spells, dizziness, seizures, abnormal breathing and chest pains, according to incident reports obtained b…

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> racist, virulently anti-immigrant and outright violent against non-union workers.

pretty much describing a lot of corporations, only they can be violent against all workers with union organizers getting it the worst.

Re: Unions work

#185

Post by salky »

nonethewiser wrote: post #162
eric_cc wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's safe to say 32 hours of work does not produce more than 40 hours. This is too simple. 32 hours of huge output may produce more than 40 hours of light output. If the machine/human output is a constant, then sure you’re correct. But that’s not true. And that’s my point. It’s relative and fluid. It’s relative to the work, the individual, the health of the individual, the weather that day, and on and on.

But 40 hours includes 32 hours. If you can produce a huge output in 32 hours then you can produce a huge output + 8 hours worth of work in 40 hours.

there would be less time available for rest compared to a 32-hour week, which could potentially lead to reduced productivity

Re: Unions work

#186

Post by colpabar »

sershe wrote: post #173
Boogie_Man wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>historically known to be... racist As many (most?) American institutions historically were >virulently anti-immigrant To prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor >outright violent against non-union workers When "scabbing", or not cooperating with their fellow workers to secure better terms There are reasonable criticisms of Unions historically and the concept of Unions as a whole, but I'm not c…

Well, what do you think the reasons are that these workers took non-union jobs with Tesla, vs union jobs with Ford/GM/etc.? > To prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor It's not just against cheap labor, it's against any labor, including better labor - e.g. very recently, https://9to5mac.com/2023/08/07/us-tsmc-plant-petition/ Also, for me as an immigrant it's very interesting that you didn't de…

I don't really understand your aside, but it's really unfair to call any position that isn't in support of open borders racist. Immigration is policy and people can have different opinions on it. It's also just not racist for an american union to want a factory in america to be staffed by american workers, especially after all the claims of said factory creating american jobs.

Re: Unions work

#187

Post by doubleg72 »

specialist wrote: post #117
andrei_says_ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? From where I stand it’s a constant race to extract more from workers and unions and possibly legislation are some of the very few forces impeding it.

Yup. Capital pushes to commodify skills and labor. We as "knowledge workers" know this in our bones. Now that we've digitized and automated blue collar work, we're tackling white collar work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Tell that to all the factory workers still moving parts around plants in small towns all across the US. Tell that to the healthcare workers at hospitals, assisted living facilities, and medical practices. May even tell that to construction workers, machinists, carpenters, HVAC guys, building controls, and even network engineers. You live in a fantasy world.

Re: Unions work

#188

Post by doubleg72 »

Yeah UAW just locked in the inflation we have experienced. I do not agree that they are being paid what they are actually worth. Unions are ruining this country.

Re: Unions work

#189

Post by tshaddox »

adamrezich wrote: post #151
tshaddox wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just sounds like humans committing assault. Really awful, but to me it doesn't indicate much about the concept of unions. I bet there was a firefighter once who murdered someone, but likewise that doesn't indicate much about the concept of firefighting.

> I bet there was a firefighter once who murdered someone, but likewise that doesn't indicate much about the concept of firefighting. exceedingly terrible analogy, because the hypothetical firefighter hypothetically committing a hypothetical murder, wholly unrelated to firefighting, is a completely different situation than union guys threatening violence on a worker for union-related reasons, in the pursuit of union-…

The point, of course, is that it wouldn't matter whether the firefighter's murder was in pursuit of firefighting-related goals. If the firefighter murdered a coworker who was competing for a promotion, that still tells you very little about the concept firefighting.

It's not some huge gotcha that the union workers who committed assault did it in pursuit of their own goals. Most people do most things in pursuit of their own goals.

Re: Unions work

#190

Post by tshaddox »

sershe wrote: post #136
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that criteria, you have ruled out siding with any form of organization that humans have ever created. Businesses, governments, churches, sports teams and probably even Girl Scout troops all have a history of committing violence when it serves their aims.

For most organizations, this behavior is incidental to their incentives. For unions, it's a primary motivation. Throughout their history, unions would always be maximally exclusionary to the degree it wouldn't backfire in terms of PR (and sometimes beyond that, e.g. Cesar Chavez conducting anti-immigrant border raids), because that is their whole point.

> For most organizations, this behavior is incidental to their incentives. For unions, it's a primary motivation.

I don't see much of a distinction. I suspect a significant portion of workplace or work-related crime involves the criminal being motivated by work-related incentives.

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