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Unions work

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Re: Unions work

#171

Post by rexpop »

specialist wrote: post #117
andrei_says_ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that it is unions that cause corporations to seek offshoring, automation etc.? From where I stand it’s a constant race to extract more from workers and unions and possibly legislation are some of the very few forces impeding it.

Yup. Capital pushes to commodify skills and labor. We as "knowledge workers" know this in our bones. Now that we've digitized and automated blue collar work, we're tackling white collar work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

But we haven't "digitized and automated blue collar work." Not by the a long shot. We've still got vast billions toiling in our service.

Re: Unions work

#172

Post by rexpop »

dismalpedigree wrote: post #80
openthc wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any pointers on how to turn an existing company into a worker co-op or employee owned company?

Get together with other employees and buy it from the owners.

No point in giving cash to exploitative bosses who are burning you out. Just take yourselves next door and hang a new shingle.

Re: Unions work

#173

Post by sershe »

Boogie_Man wrote: post #166
sershe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>historically known to be... racist As many (most?) American institutions historically were >virulently anti-immigrant To prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor >outright violent against non-union workers When "scabbing", or not cooperating with their fellow workers to secure better terms There are reasonable criticisms of Unions historically and the concept of Unions as a whole, but I'm not c…

Well, what do you think the reasons are that these workers took non-union jobs with Tesla, vs union jobs with Ford/GM/etc.?

> To prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor

It's not just against cheap labor, it's against any labor, including better labor - e.g. very recently, https://9to5mac.com/2023/08/07/us-tsmc-plant-petition/

Also, for me as an immigrant it's very interesting that you didn't defend racism on the ground of "prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor"- which is exactly what they were trying to do; but you did defend anti-immigration sentiment on that basis. Anti-immigration sentiment is still pretty socially acceptable in the US, so it's still ok to use this defense, apparently. Exactly because unions in a vacuum are pure evil - and they will behave maximally evilly within the confines that social mores allow. If racism was also still socially acceptable, unions would use that too regardless of other institutions.

Re: Unions work

#174

Post by treis »

neon_electro wrote: post #106
treis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the real title should be Unions Work For Union Members. Unions became unpopular for a reason. Some were (and I assume still are) outright criminal organizations. The better ones were happy to sell out future workers with two tiered pay structures and by rotting out the companies they worked for. In practice they have just been another layer of economically unproductive people siphoning off value.

Unions are working to fight the two tier wage structure you speak of; are you aware? UPS/Teamsters is one such example.

Because after 15 years the balance of power has tipped from those who sold out to those that were sold.

Re: Unions work

#175

Post by throwawa14223 »

LindeBuzoGray wrote: post #134
knewter wrote: post #128

When I was learning to walk, my dad was installing conveyors for an automotive factory - he was vp of engineering (later robotics) for a large engineering firm that Siemens ultimately bought. He was trying to get the job finished and get home to his family, so he was working late one night double checking the fit on all the nuts, bolts, anything he could check to ensure the job was successful. He did this all the tim…

So the union and company came to a legal agreement about work and your father chose to do work breaking that agreement. What would happen if I began installing or moving pipes at my company that management and ownership told me not to? A "gang" of security guards or policemen would visit violence on me to stop. You are aghast at the people actually doing the work and creating the wealth enforcing their rights, but ma…

> So the union and company came to a legal agreement about work and your father chose to do work breaking that agreement.

Adding value deserves to be met with threats. This is a stunning argument against unions you're making.

Re: Unions work

#176

Post by LindeBuzoGray »

throwawa14223 wrote: post #175
LindeBuzoGray wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the union and company came to a legal agreement about work and your father chose to do work breaking that agreement. What would happen if I began installing or moving pipes at my company that management and ownership told me not to? A "gang" of security guards or policemen would visit violence on me to stop. You are aghast at the people actually doing the work and creating the wealth enforcing their rights, but ma…

> So the union and company came to a legal agreement about work and your father chose to do work breaking that agreement. Adding value deserves to be met with threats. This is a stunning argument against unions you're making.

If I add value which management does not approve, then I am met by threats on their end. That is a stunning argument against management.

The workers create all the wealth and do all the work. The heirs who own the controlling stake in a big company like Siemens do not work, but expropriate surplus labor time doing work.

You have the workers who do all the work and create all the wealth on one end, and the heirs who parasitically expropriate the worker's surplus time on the other. It's obvious to those of us who work who the "argument" is against.

Re: Unions work

#177

Post by babypuncher »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #131
babypuncher wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced LLM's are capable of any truly original thought, which is necessary for good compelling writing. LLM's spit out derivative nonsense. Highly convincing nonsense, but derivative nonetheless. Any true originality in the output still comes from the human engineering the prompt. Basically, LLM's know how to follow the rules, color within the lines. A real artist understands those rules well enough to bre…

This hasn’t been my experience at all. It’s just as original as humans, especially at the “derivative” style of most popular media. It’s probably true that humans are still better at extremely creative thought but that’s not what most commercial writing is.

> especially at the “derivative” style of most popular media

This is what I see as the problem. Hollywood needs to stop relying so heavily on derivative goop and give actual creatives more leeway in creating something original.

You can only ride old IPs for so long before people lose interest and stop buying tickets, as Hollywood has been learning recently. You need people coming up with fresh novel ideas if you ever want to come up with the next big thing.

Some executive asking Chat-GPT to spit out a new Marvel movie script isn't going to do that.

Re: Unions work

#178

Post by babypuncher »

randomcarbloke wrote: post #130
babypuncher wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced LLM's are capable of any truly original thought, which is necessary for good compelling writing. LLM's spit out derivative nonsense. Highly convincing nonsense, but derivative nonetheless. Any true originality in the output still comes from the human engineering the prompt. Basically, LLM's know how to follow the rules, color within the lines. A real artist understands those rules well enough to bre…

So what you're really saying is there are no true artists left in Hollywood.

Oh they exist, they just have a much harder time finding work, and when they do get to make something it rarely gets the same marketing push as comic book shared universe project #87. Some great movies still come out, but you probably never hear about them if you aren't actively plugged in to the scene.

I think filmmakers like Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert (Swiss Army Man, Everything Everywhere All at Once) are where Hollywood should be focusing their attention, and their sweep at the Oscars this year has me cautiously hopeful that at least a few people in power are paying attention.

Re: Unions work

#179

Post by ocschwar »

Woshiwuja wrote: post #38
ocschwar wrote: post #12

I have my doubts about unions in our particular industry sector, but out in the real world there are many, many jobs that you would have to be insane to take up without a union at your back.

Unions are fundamental in every line of work. Not having them is a huge problem. In Europe there isnt a single job without an union behind, wonder why in America that doesnt happen

> Unions are fundamental in every line of work

They are fundamental in that they blunt the threat I face if I fell out of my present line of work and had to take something that would rough up my baby soft laptop jockey hands. If they have a better bargaining position, I have a better bargaining position because it's less of a loss if I have to join their ranks.

Re: Unions work

#180

Post by Boogie_Man »

sershe wrote: post #173
Boogie_Man wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>historically known to be... racist As many (most?) American institutions historically were >virulently anti-immigrant To prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor >outright violent against non-union workers When "scabbing", or not cooperating with their fellow workers to secure better terms There are reasonable criticisms of Unions historically and the concept of Unions as a whole, but I'm not c…

Well, what do you think the reasons are that these workers took non-union jobs with Tesla, vs union jobs with Ford/GM/etc.? > To prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor It's not just against cheap labor, it's against any labor, including better labor - e.g. very recently, https://9to5mac.com/2023/08/07/us-tsmc-plant-petition/ Also, for me as an immigrant it's very interesting that you didn't de…

>Well, what do you think the reasons are that these workers took non-union jobs with Tesla, vs union jobs with Ford/GM/etc.?

Because it's a job that's available near the workers. You could also say "Why would workers at GM take union jobs instead of non-union jobs". Companies having employees is not a useful metric in determining how good a company is when we're talking about manual work. It only tells you there are people who would like to be employed.

>It's not just against cheap labor, it's against any labor, including better labor - e.g. very recently, https://9to5mac.com/2023/08/07/us-tsmc-plant-petition/

This is a valid criticism. I think it might be a critique of the workforce or educational system in general, but I agree that these unions are playing a part. Some sort of working agreement is needed for exceptional circumstances like this, and unions need to come to the table.

>it's very interesting that you didn't defend racism on the ground of "prevent wage reduction as a result of an influx of cheap labor"- which is exactly what they were trying to do; but you did defend anti-immigration sentiment on that basis. Anti-immigration sentiment is still pretty socially acceptable in the US, so it's still ok to use this defense, apparently.

I was attempting to provide context to your statement. It is a moral and tactical failing of the union to not accept workers of different ethnic and religious backgrounds, and protect their interests the same as any other working man, if they already existed in the labor pool. If a company is importing cheap labor of a different ethnicity en masse, they are not doing it innocently. Companies understand that racial tensions are a great tool to divide workers. A company using racial tension as a weapon is much more of a problem than workers being racist individually. That is a failing that needs to be addressed with socialization, education, and shared culture, but it is secondary.

>Exactly because unions in a vacuum are pure evil - and they will behave maximally evilly within the confines that social mores allow. If racism was also still socially acceptable, unions would use that too regardless of other institutions.

If you replace "unions" with "companies forced to compete in a race to the bottom, becoming more and more cutthroat to survive" I'd agree.

Remember: They'd chain you to the machines if it was still legal

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