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Unions work

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Re: Unions work

#131

Post by zeroonetwothree »

babypuncher wrote: post #58
mjr00 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that comes to fruition they'll just have one writer who is responsible for putting their name on a ton of AI-generated scripts. But at this very moment, AI generating anything suitable for something other than SEO blogspam isn't possible anyway. It might be right around the corner, or it might be "right around the corner" like self-driving cars were in 2015.

I'm not convinced LLM's are capable of any truly original thought, which is necessary for good compelling writing. LLM's spit out derivative nonsense. Highly convincing nonsense, but derivative nonetheless. Any true originality in the output still comes from the human engineering the prompt. Basically, LLM's know how to follow the rules, color within the lines. A real artist understands those rules well enough to bre…

This hasn’t been my experience at all. It’s just as original as humans, especially at the “derivative” style of most popular media. It’s probably true that humans are still better at extremely creative thought but that’s not what most commercial writing is.

Re: Unions work

#132

Post by TheCoelacanth »

knewter wrote: post #128

When I was learning to walk, my dad was installing conveyors for an automotive factory - he was vp of engineering (later robotics) for a large engineering firm that Siemens ultimately bought. He was trying to get the job finished and get home to his family, so he was working late one night double checking the fit on all the nuts, bolts, anything he could check to ensure the job was successful. He did this all the tim…

With that criteria, you have ruled out siding with any form of organization that humans have ever created.

Businesses, governments, churches, sports teams and probably even Girl Scout troops all have a history of committing violence when it serves their aims.

Re: Unions work

#133

Post by zeroonetwothree »

nonethewiser wrote: post #104
eric_cc wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> working 32 hours is not as productive as 40 hours. Absolute statements like this on this topic are invalid. It’s relative and fluid and not something you can prove scientifically and definitively.

It's safe to say 32 hours of work does not produce more than 40 hours. The gray area is the point at which there are diminishing returns. Is that between 32 and 40 hours, or more? And how much do they diminish?

By that logic why wouldn’t the maximum be at 168 hours?

Clearly there is some cost to more hours that causes the maximum to be at strictly less than the maximum. Given that we have no reason to assume 40 hours is better than 32 hours.

Re: Unions work

#134

Post by LindeBuzoGray »

knewter wrote: post #128

When I was learning to walk, my dad was installing conveyors for an automotive factory - he was vp of engineering (later robotics) for a large engineering firm that Siemens ultimately bought. He was trying to get the job finished and get home to his family, so he was working late one night double checking the fit on all the nuts, bolts, anything he could check to ensure the job was successful. He did this all the tim…

So the union and company came to a legal agreement about work and your father chose to do work breaking that agreement.

What would happen if I began installing or moving pipes at my company that management and ownership told me not to? A "gang" of security guards or policemen would visit violence on me to stop.

You are aghast at the people actually doing the work and creating the wealth enforcing their rights, but make no mention of the heirs who own Siemens and their "gangs" working to expropriate surplus labor time and profit.

Re: Unions work

#135

Post by wilg »

Spivak wrote: post #127
billy99k wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't the point. When the union is involved, they keep demanding hire wages and benefits and it gets to the point where companies are better-off offshoring. Just look at the automotive industry. They have not only been offshoring, but the unions have strangled them to the point where it nearly destroyed the industry. I will only buy non-US cars as a result of this (mostly because of poor qualit).

That makes no since because foreign companies are onshoring manufacturing. There's a good chance your foreign car was made here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Honda_Motor_Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_North_America The fact that The Ford Dodge GM Chrysler Jeep Dr Pepper S…

None of those companies auto workers are unionized in the US.

Re: Unions work

#136

Post by sershe »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #132
knewter wrote: post #128

When I was learning to walk, my dad was installing conveyors for an automotive factory - he was vp of engineering (later robotics) for a large engineering firm that Siemens ultimately bought. He was trying to get the job finished and get home to his family, so he was working late one night double checking the fit on all the nuts, bolts, anything he could check to ensure the job was successful. He did this all the tim…

With that criteria, you have ruled out siding with any form of organization that humans have ever created. Businesses, governments, churches, sports teams and probably even Girl Scout troops all have a history of committing violence when it serves their aims.

For most organizations, this behavior is incidental to their incentives. For unions, it's a primary motivation. Throughout their history, unions would always be maximally exclusionary to the degree it wouldn't backfire in terms of PR (and sometimes beyond that, e.g. Cesar Chavez conducting anti-immigrant border raids), because that is their whole point.

Re: Unions work

#137

Post by zeroonetwothree »

nonethewiser wrote: post #83
bastardoperator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies have shown time and time again that a 4 day work week results in higher productivity and happier employees. Happy employees also do better work.

No they have not. Studies by motivated parties show in some cases there are diminishing returns. It's a non-sensical argument. If a 4 day work week is more productive than a 5 day work week it means the 5th days is producing negative work. You could literally do nothing every Friday and you would not be less productive than a 4 day work week.

It’s very easy to produce negative work as a programmer so this isn’t as silly as you assume. How often have I spent hours debugging some code only to realize I did something stupid after staying up late the previous night.

Re: Unions work

#138

Post by dleslie »

babypuncher wrote: post #58
mjr00 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that comes to fruition they'll just have one writer who is responsible for putting their name on a ton of AI-generated scripts. But at this very moment, AI generating anything suitable for something other than SEO blogspam isn't possible anyway. It might be right around the corner, or it might be "right around the corner" like self-driving cars were in 2015.

I'm not convinced LLM's are capable of any truly original thought, which is necessary for good compelling writing. LLM's spit out derivative nonsense. Highly convincing nonsense, but derivative nonetheless. Any true originality in the output still comes from the human engineering the prompt. Basically, LLM's know how to follow the rules, color within the lines. A real artist understands those rules well enough to bre…

I'm not convinced that most, or any, humans are ever engaging in truly original thought.

This idea that AI cannot be creative but humans can is something that begs for a test; and that test needs to be applied against humans, as well. If AI can pass it at least as often as humans can, then AI is at least as creative as humans; within the bounds of that test.

As it happens, an AI has recently passed such a test[0].

0: https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/09/14/1079465/ai-just-...

Re: Unions work

#139

Post by xinruili »

comex wrote: post #49
morelisp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy people and stores trying to make their customers feel like a wealthy person.

For wealthy people, that would be an example of extreme luxury, or in other words spending vast amounts of money for marginal improvements in quality of life. Doing so is perfectly rational for them (what else are they going to do with their money?), but hardly an example of economic efficiency. “Stores trying to make their customers feel like a wealthy person” are a special case. It might be economically efficient (…

This means the capitalist class is funding stores with large enough margins to hire elevator operators, clearly inefficient allocation of capital. They can afford to do that by squeezing dime and nickel from the workers, extracting the most "efficiency" from them. That's the point.

Re: Unions work

#140

Post by wilg »

spacemadness wrote: post #91
nonethewiser wrote: post #53

I can see why workers are most concerned with their own benefit but total productivity is important to the health of a business and economy, which is important to workers as well. And no, working 32 hours is not as productive as 40 hours.

Ah yes, the economy. The thing we all need to endlessly sacrifice our lives for out of fear something terrible will happen otherwise. A fear that those in power yield continually like a stick that is very rarely backed up by facts and sensible ideas. The same economy that is leading to massive wealth inequality regardless of how much people work to stop being beaten by the stick.

It’s not crazy to suggest you need to balance labor demands with the demands of efficiently running a business.
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