A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy • Hacker News Board

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#461

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:11 PM UTC

kmkemp wrote: post #422

dcow wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t even true for the US. In the US we believe it’s better to let a criminal run free than deprive an innocent of their liberty.

That seems to be the sentiment based on our founding origins or if you talk to an individual, but the fact is that we imprison more people per capita than anyone else. It's hard for me to believe that all of the criminals just live in the USA.

About 70% of convicts in prison are there for violent offenses and should be there. The remaining 30% is mainly drug and property crimes.

Now it’s important to understand what is meant when people reference incarceration numbers. A lot of these are people awaiting trial on charges they will be found guilty of but receive minimal sentences via plea bargaining. Another large portion are illegal immigrants that are awaiting processing for either integration or deportation.

So if you erase those 2 groups it’s mainly violent people. There’s an abundance of violent people in the USA compared to Western Europe and certainly Asia I’d say.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#462

Post by benregenspan » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:12 PM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #409

the_af wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science. Honest question, trying to parse your statement (and bear in mind I don't live in Europe, so I'm surely missing the obvious): do you mean that in Denmark there is a bias against Eastern Europeans, such as Romanians? Edit: excellent, got a downvote for asking an honest question and clarifying why I wrote it. Is this an example of the fine discour…

Domestic violence is still common in Eastern Europe(i.e Romania) so go figure why there is a bias against Eastern Europeans.

Domestic violence is higher where poverty rates are higher. (I am not saying that poverty is the sole determinant, but it closely correlates). You will find pockets of higher domestic violence throughout the US. I don't think you can rationalize bias like this, people with ethnic prejudice will look for any apparent fact pattern to support their preconceived bias.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#463

Post by the_af » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

semanticist wrote: post #445

the_af wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science. Honest question, trying to parse your statement (and bear in mind I don't live in Europe, so I'm surely missing the obvious): do you mean that in Denmark there is a bias against Eastern Europeans, such as Romanians? Edit: excellent, got a downvote for asking an honest question and clarifying why I wrote it. Is this an example of the fine discour…

For your edit: 'honest questions' (which are in fact anything but: the person asking has no interest in the answer, and the question itself is often leading) are a common disruptive tactic used by people (normally pushing extreme right-wing ideologies) to derail a conversation. I'm sure that you're not doing that here, but unfortunately people with genuinely honest questions have become collateral damage caused by di…

Yeah, I figured, which is why my original question clarified I'm not from Europe (so no vested interest) and that I might be genuinely missing the obvious answer. Which is why I was surprised by the drive-by downvote.

Thankfully people have responded and now I both understand the sentence and the why!

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#464

Post by red_admiral » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

bitxbitxbitcoin wrote: post #439

red_admiral wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a skin condition called Mongolian (Blue) Spot (wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_spot ) that doctors can mistake for an infant being beaten or otherwise abused. It has led to a lot of cases of false accusations and children being forcibly removed from their parents who were then charged with child abuse. According to Wikipedia, as to the distribution of this condition, > The birthmark is pre…

Damn that hits home. I’ve got a blue spot birthmark that was seen at elementary school which then led to child services showing up at home. This happened in the US and everyone involved was “non Indigenous.”

Sorry to hear that happened to you - and I realise that "indigenous" in the U.S. means the opposite to some of Europe, sorry!

I'm guessing if some kind of Commanche social worker turned up to look at a case of blue spot, they'd go "Yeah that's a birthmark, about half our children have it, our nation even has legends about it. Have a nice day!".

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#465

Post by amanaplanacanal » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #139

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can certainly see the other side of this argument though, it feels very unfair to saddle a third party with the responsibility to support a child they had no part in making.

Do you have kids? I remember when my wife was pregnant with our first, I kept half-joking about getting a peace of mind paternity test. After actually meeting the kid and getting to know our love her, I couldn't think of anything more devastating than finding out she's not mine. Honestly wouldn't want to know, because losing my little girl would be worse than misallocating resources or whatever the Darwinian theory w…

Oh sure, I totally understand that. I wouldn’t care a bit about genetics in that case.

Imagine a different scenario though. Imagine you are on the point of breaking up, or even already separated, and she is suddenly pregnant.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#466

Post by noodlenotes » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

seszett wrote: post #286

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #250

When I was getting ready to turn dad for the first time, I read a few books on pregnancy, children and parenting. My trust on medicine dropped substantially when I discovered that doctors have poor notion of statistics, so they take for granted improper studies results. I remember one classic one is the "no coffee when pregnant", the study says this causes problems, the test was performed on rats and by feeding them…

> I remember one classic one is the "no coffee when pregnant", the study says this causes problems, the test was performed on rats and by feeding them coffee in the amount of 3/4 of their body weight. We can agree that with this amount, it's reasonable it could cause problems. Very different from one cup of coffee though. Honestly I don't know which study you're talking about, and I'm not trying to question what you'…

I'm a light sleeper and I feel like I have an awareness of everything nearby when I'm asleep (like I used to fall asleep with an open laptop in bed during college without knocking into it). I have a feeling co-sleeping wouldn't be an issue for me, but with all the dire warnings I'm afraid to risk it.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#467

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #360

mike_hock wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implying ripping children out of their families willy-nilly is "more developed."

Not ripping children from actually abusive families is more developed. There are many cases of abuses families who need to lose their children, and in some those families still have children. There are other cases where good families lose their children. Note that I carefully did not say anything about what abuse is. Unfortunately there is no agreement and I don't want to get into that debate (it is well worth having…

> There are many cases of abuses families who need to lose their children, and in some those families still have children.

A challenge is where the ripped-off children wind up, a foster home system with it's own abuse issues.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#468

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #299

woof wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the bias is on your part… Which is ironic, given the articles content…. Or do you have _evidence_?

Not everything comes with evidence, nor is everything a court case. If you have experienced racism again and again though, you can often tell when you see it, or you can quite safely deduce it in a case or wrong treatment, even without hard proof.

> If you have experienced racism again and again though, you can often tell when you see it, or you can quite safely deduce it in a case or wrong treatment, even without hard proof.

There may be some overlap between systemic racial mistreatment and child abuse - however the nuances seem to set them far apart. I believe conflating the two makes it harder to get the full measure of each.

It's not that they can't be compared. It's that they ought to be fully considered in isolation first.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#469

Post by CrHn3 » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #453

CrHn3 wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you've never been a mother who can't produce milk for her child That's your assumption. You're missing the point, which is that you can supplement formula with both 2'FL and b. infantis and get immune system outcomes that are more similar to those that occur while breastfeeding [1]. The fact that milk typically faciliates a cascade of changes that lay the foundation for a healthy immune system is not at odds with f…

> That's your assumption. Oh do correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love to hear your personal experience. Anyway... How can you close the gaps when the mother isn't producing milk? I'm actually confused because you keep telling me it's better, with links and everything, but... It's simply non existent for a lot of mothers. Non producing or a bad latch is enough to put a newborn baby at risk after one week. It's like you do…

I've breastfed multiple children with ups and downs of it being easy and hard, suffered through the struggle of learning to do it the first time as postpartum mother after major surgery, through teething, latch issues, biting, pure physical exhaustion, and the transition of going back to work that leads to decreased supply. I've watched close friends that have struggled with production with underweight, premature babies pump like crazy and feel stressed out trying to get their supply up but ultimately transition to formula on the advice of doctors. My own anxiety around combination feeding and not feeling like I had a clear understanding of differences in the microbiome with a surgical birth or formula use lead to me reading everything I could find to gain a better understanding of the differences in outcomes for exclusive breastfeeding, combination and formula feeding.

We can close the gaps by subsidizing Evivo's EVC001 b. infantis and making it a standard that every formula contains 2'FL. Individuals can choose these formulas and purchase b. infantis already. If we were to make it so that all babies, not just NICU babies at hospitals aware of the research, get these two things, public health outcomes (especially those related to autoimmune conditions) should be better than if we continue allowing formula that is not as analogous with breastmilk. We can have better lactation support that is current and evidence based (such as that from ABM contributor Katrina Mitchell https://physicianguidetobreastfeeding.org).

Another reason mom blogs are toxic is because people read past others points when issues are really emotionally charged for them. Really sorry your wife struggled. Formula is fine, but there are reasons breastmilk is pushed, especially since milk is supply and demand and it's hard to identify those with true low supply and those whose bodies just haven't ramped up production yet. Hopefully as a model of immune system response and the impact of b. infantis and HMOs gains more awareness, there will be less pressure since we are assured babies are getting many of the same benefits.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#470

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

tokai wrote: post #317

raducu wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar case in Denmark/Romania where a baby was taken from his romanian parents because of the shaken baby syndrome, parents spent time in jail, but the hemorage continued over time so they had to concede it wasn't the shaken baby syndromd.

Even if the kids hemorrhaging continued, it was brought to the ER initially with fractures in the right side of the skull.

> it was brought to the ER initially with fractures in the right side of the skull.

Just to defuse this a bit. My #4 used to collect skull fractures. He'd slip away in a nanosecond and would be 50' above us two heartbeats later. We put him in a padded helmet for a year or so. It stayed on sometimes.

As an adult he can still disappear in an empty room.