Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot • Hacker News Board

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#211

Post by ismarc » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:40 PM UTC

rada wrote: post #133

CompiledCode wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example? In almost all states, if the wife gets pregnant by another man, the man is still on the hook for child support for the next 18+ years... even if she divorces him and marries her lover. I can't think of an equivalent anti-female law with such devastating long-term impact on the woman. I know this message might be off tangent for the HN board. But if we're discussing anti-female sexist culture…

I understand why you would see the particular law you are describing as "anti-male" - however most laws related to children are the way they are because they are not about the welfare of the adults at all . The law is thinking something along the lines of: children need to be taken care of; the government doesn't have the money; whoever happens to be sitting on the musical chairs the first several years of the child'…

I dislike people using the child-support laws as an example of a law that is completely biased against men. One which is completely absurd, insane and over-the-top favoring women over men is in the rights a man has around the establishment of paternity.

Take the following situation: Married woman gets pregnant. Lists arbitrary non-husband X as the parent. At this point, neither male has any ability to compel a paternity test. The law recognizes the arbitrary person listed on the birth certificate as the father (however, at this point he does not have to pay child support). The only way a paternity test can be compelled is if the male is 'accused' of being the father AND the mother attempts to collect child support. In the given scenario, the husband cannot ever know if the child is his unless it is found to be someone elses (he knows it is not) or he gets a divorce and his previous wife requests child support for the child.

This has nothing to do with the welfare of the child. The woman could even list unknown as the father of the child and then immediately give the child up for adoption, preventing the male from ever being able to be involved in the decision and is permanently removed from the life of the child.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#212

Post by scott_s » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:41 PM UTC

batista wrote: post #190

unalone wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet another common trope in gender discussions is this idea that people shouldn't complain about sexism because there are more important things to worry about. We are complex machines that are capable of worrying about multiple cultural issues at a time. This is an issue. If there are things you'd rather us focus on, write a blog post, start a thread, make something. Don't try and derail this one, because it's releva…

>Yet another common trope in gender discussions is this idea that people shouldn't complain about sexism because there are more important things to worry about. Haven't thought of it that way, but sounds like a reasonable general guideline: don't worry about minor things when there are important things that mess with your life and your society. Oh, and I see what you did there --by adding "sexism"--, whereas my comme…

It seems minor to you.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#213

Post by muyuu » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:41 PM UTC

What's sexist about the "that's what she said" jokes? Maybe it's because these jokes never caught on where I live (UK), but I don't understand why would anyone be offended by that.

Any clues? I'd ask my American coworker but she's not in the office.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#214

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:43 PM UTC

efsavage wrote: post #193

tomjen3 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Undertones? You mean the classical 'you are guilty and won't admit it'? As for when it should be shot down -- when a majority don't think it is funny. It is called company culture and unless you believe females should have special protection because they are an inferior sex they will properly have to get used to it. And the reason we ask a male to move the desk is because they tend to be physically stronger (with exc…

"company culture" is what she was trying to fix. If someone has a TWSS bot, I'm guessing there are some more serious bias issues, perhaps like the author said, that people aren't even aware of. "because they tend to be" is the type of excuse/rationalization that starts these problems. Of course men, on average, are stronger, but 99% of the time a woman can help you just as well. Making a decision based on someone's g…

You say fix, I say she tried to destroy it. They had fun, what right does she have to ruin it?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#215

Post by franticpedantic » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:44 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #164

ugh wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m honestly curious, what are your reasons for writing this comment? It seems off-topic.

When a child who has all the toys is told they have to share, some children will throw a hissy fit. This is an apt metaphore for a "men's rights" movement which rares it's head when people talking about giving women as much power as men.

Men are as likely to be raped, but their (prison) rapes are considered funny in our society, whereas female rapes are considered a grave crime. Men are generally considered more disposable in dangerous situations ("let the women and children go"). Stereotypes and gender roles regarding men are much more rigid, and challenging them has much less cultural buy-in than challenging gender roles with women. Men are much more likely to be assaulted. I told my very feminist sister a story about a guy who punched the guy his girlfriend was cheating on him with. At first she misheard me and thought he punched the girl, which was considered horrible. When I clarified that it was the guy, she immediately made a comment that it was less serious. She has internalized the sexism that it's much less serious to assault a male.

I could go on and on, but you're so brainwashed by the feminist agenda that you have internalized it and don't even see the blatant sexism in our society. It's so ironic that so many feminists/liberals are so guilty of what they accuse others of - being unaware of their own prejudices.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#216

Post by roguecoder » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

efsavage wrote: post #193

tomjen3 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Undertones? You mean the classical 'you are guilty and won't admit it'? As for when it should be shot down -- when a majority don't think it is funny. It is called company culture and unless you believe females should have special protection because they are an inferior sex they will properly have to get used to it. And the reason we ask a male to move the desk is because they tend to be physically stronger (with exc…

"company culture" is what she was trying to fix. If someone has a TWSS bot, I'm guessing there are some more serious bias issues, perhaps like the author said, that people aren't even aware of. "because they tend to be" is the type of excuse/rationalization that starts these problems. Of course men, on average, are stronger, but 99% of the time a woman can help you just as well. Making a decision based on someone's g…

One day I needed someone to help me move a heavy server. It took me about 15 minutes to find someone who hadn't blown out their back recently (or at least, claimed to have), and she was the one woman woman on the floor. Most of the men probably injured themselves assuming upper body strength came with their gender, rather than were the product of actually exercising occasionally.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#217

Post by jjcm » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:48 PM UTC

Why not just patch the current bot to interject "that's what he said" as well?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#218

Post by franticpedantic » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:50 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #164

ugh wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m honestly curious, what are your reasons for writing this comment? It seems off-topic.

When a child who has all the toys is told they have to share, some children will throw a hissy fit. This is an apt metaphore for a "men's rights" movement which rares it's head when people talking about giving women as much power as men.

Men are as likely to be raped, but their (prison) rapes are considered funny in our society, whereas female rapes are considered a grave crime. Men are generally considered more disposable in dangerous situations ("let the women and children go"). Stereotypes and gender roles regarding men are much more rigid, and challenging them has much less cultural buy-in than challenging gender roles with women. Men are much more likely to be assaulted. I told my very feminist sister a story about a guy who punched another guy that his girlfriend was cheating on him with. At first she misheard me and thought he punched the girl, which was considered horrible. When I clarified that it was the guy he hit, she immediately made a comment that indicating that it was less serious. She has internalized the sexism that it's much less serious to assault a male.

I could go on and on, but you're so brainwashed by a movement that has overall very good intentions (empower women in a society that disempowers them) that you have internalized it and don't even see the blatant sexism on the other side of the coin. Even this piece contains so many generalizations about men, geeks, tech workplaces that are blatantly unfair.

It's so ironic that so many feminists/liberals are so guilty of what they accuse others of - being unaware of their own prejudices.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#219

Post by franticpedantic » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:50 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #164

ugh wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m honestly curious, what are your reasons for writing this comment? It seems off-topic.

When a child who has all the toys is told they have to share, some children will throw a hissy fit. This is an apt metaphore for a "men's rights" movement which rares it's head when people talking about giving women as much power as men.

Men are as likely to be raped, but their (prison) rapes are considered funny in our society, whereas female rapes are considered a grave crime. Men are generally considered more disposable in dangerous situations ("let the women and children go"). Stereotypes and gender roles regarding men are much more rigid, and challenging them has much less cultural buy-in than challenging gender roles with women. Men are much more likely to be assaulted. I told my very feminist sister a story about a guy who punched another guy that his girlfriend was cheating on him with. At first she misheard me and thought he punched the girl, which was considered horrible. When I clarified that it was the guy he hit, she immediately made a comment that indicating that it was less serious. She has internalized the sexism that it's much less serious to assault a male.

I could go on and on, but you're so brainwashed by a movement that has overall very good intentions (empower women in a society that disempowers them) that you have internalized it and don't even see the blatant sexism on the other side of the coin. Even this piece contains so many generalizations about men, geeks, tech workplaces that are blatantly unfair.

It's so ironic that so many feminists/liberals are so guilty of what they accuse others of - being unaware of their own prejudices.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#220

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:52 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #189

tomjen3 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She definitely did the right thing by not complaining to management but a startup is not a suit company and therefore there are things that go on there that would not have been accepted in a suit company. There are plenty of employees who like their company that way and if she didn't she is not really suited for the company culture. She can (and should) seek employment elsewhere. She will be better of there. Finally…

Hi! Startup cofounder here. Working in and with startups since Web 0.8. I see you're a student, so I want to take the time to be clear: Suppose you worked at my startup. Suppose further that you suggested to one of your colleagues, as you did now, that they quit because they weren't inclined to put up with what they saw as a hostile work environment. You know who would be gone? You. Startups are a team sport. We don'…

I see that I need to update my bio...

The reason I am so pissed is that I work in a company where we do things and make jokes that would get you kicked out the door in most suit companies and everybody enjoys it -- including the girls (who are often the best) -- and yes there is the guy who doesn't find it funny to change his screen, so we don't. To him. If he finds it obnoxious that we make those jokes with others, he can deal with it or leave.

And yet, if somebody where to join us who would get annoyed working there do you suggest the rest of us should leave?

I wouldn't make the joke I did in a company that didn't appreciate it but I wouldn't stand for it being change just to fit a few people either.