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Rethinking the Luddites

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Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#371

Post by tibbydudeza »

creer wrote: post #264

The luddite example is one of suddenness: The owners see the massive advantage of mechanization and move in fast. The workers are blindsided - they don't have the time and spend all the time they do have in a ludicrous war. The regions are somewhat mono-industry which completes in making a giant mess. All in all the exact quandary not to get caught in. Now that they have demonstrated it, long ago, do we really have t…

I remember the mantra of some in the tech field of "no problem - just learn to code" when blue collar jobs in the manufacturing in the US was on the wane as production moved to cheaper locations overseas.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#372

Post by fhd2 »

ojo-rojo wrote: post #333
fhd2 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of anyone who wants to "prevent AI" - as incredibly ambiguous as that phrase is. What I suppose some people worry about is stuff like: 1. That they will have some means of feeding themselves and their families going forward 2. That they won't be at the whim of increasingly totalitarian (and arbitrary) governments with increasing power 3. That they will continue to find human connection 4. That they won'…

What about this guy: "the most likely result of building a superhumanly smart AI, under anything remotely like the current circumstances, is that literally everyone on Earth will die" "Shut down all the large GPU clusters...be willing to destroy a rogue datacenter by airstrike" https://time.com/6266923/ai-eliezer-yudkowsky-open-letter-no...

Touché :D

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#373

Post by fnord123 »

raincole wrote: post #211

Luddites in the age of AI don't exist. Until at least some data centers get burned down to the ground, comparing the current anti-AI movement to Luddites is just ridiculous.

Are you aware that the Writer's Guild of America were striking for 4 months against AI doing their jobs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Writers_Guild_of_America_...

There are also many law suits against AI works:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/20/books/authors-openai-laws...

You really require that they resort to physical violence when they know fully that data in one DC will be backed up elsewhere so it will have no effect. From my pov, they are using the violence of the legal system to stop/slow AI.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#374

Post by kdmccormick »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #371
creer wrote: post #264

The luddite example is one of suddenness: The owners see the massive advantage of mechanization and move in fast. The workers are blindsided - they don't have the time and spend all the time they do have in a ludicrous war. The regions are somewhat mono-industry which completes in making a giant mess. All in all the exact quandary not to get caught in. Now that they have demonstrated it, long ago, do we really have t…

I remember the mantra of some in the tech field of "no problem - just learn to code" when blue collar jobs in the manufacturing in the US was on the wane as production moved to cheaper locations overseas.

I think that is a good point to bring up, but it is orthogonal.

Production moving overseas is not the same as technological advancement. One can be against outsourcing but in favor of domestic technological progress.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#375

Post by generic92034 »

NoThankYouTho wrote: post #7
kwhitefoot wrote: post #4

I thought that this had been the conventional view for a while now. Certainly it is what i have believed for many years, that the Luddites were reacting to iniquitous working practices and market forces.

You are definitely correct, but there is a popular perception that Luddites are just reactionarily "opposing progress" because it hurts their own personal interests.

The hypocrisy in this popular perception is, that this would be anything but completely normal human behavior. Does anyone believe C level executives would replace themselves by (advanced) AIs, just because is would make sense economically?

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#376

Post by hef19898 »

davidgoudet wrote: post #343
sakex wrote: post #330

> Today, the word “Luddite” is used as an insult to anyone resistant to technological innovation Interesting, I never thought of the term as pejorative. I always thought of the movement as a kind of working-class heroes trying to navigate an uncertain future where rich people made them obsolete.

It's not pejorative for you if you are a liberal, for me it is pejorative, I see Luddites as people who damage important parts of production systems and threaten people's lives. I understand your point of view if you're from a first-world country and you never experienced the terror of having people interfering with the means of production.

It is sometimes scary how long propaganda continues to work. In the case of the Luddites, ot was factory owners propaganda about, rightfully, discruntled workers opossing abuse and exploitation.

In a sense, this propaganda win in England gave us the current oppossition to unions we see in the US and among corporations.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#377

Post by dsego »

Muromec wrote: post #360
davidgoudet wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not pejorative for you if you are a liberal, for me it is pejorative, I see Luddites as people who damage important parts of production systems and threaten people's lives. I understand your point of view if you're from a first-world country and you never experienced the terror of having people interfering with the means of production.

> important parts of production systems and threaten people's lives Which is fair and proportional if people doing it got their own livelihood threatened by introduction of said systems. Especially in 19th century when not having a work to do meant not having food.

It all depends on who prevails. The american revolution would be viewed through a different lens if the British had won. The french resistance blowing up trains could be considered terrorist acts if ww2 ended differently.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#378

Post by mongol »

davidgoudet wrote: post #362
softg wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> understand your point of view if you're from a first-world country and you never experienced the terror of having people interfering with the means of production. Do you mean a strike? A very common event in many first-world countries like the US or France ?

Not a strike, damaging machines and planting bombs.

The Luddites of today throw paint on art and glue themselves to it, or to roads stopping traffic, to make some kind of point about wetlands.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#379

Post by tibbydudeza »

kdmccormick wrote: post #374
tibbydudeza wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the mantra of some in the tech field of "no problem - just learn to code" when blue collar jobs in the manufacturing in the US was on the wane as production moved to cheaper locations overseas.

I think that is a good point to bring up, but it is orthogonal. Production moving overseas is not the same as technological advancement. One can be against outsourcing but in favor of domestic technological progress.

We all want our cheap TV's at Walmart but sadly people in general don't think of the bigger consequences of wanting low bargain basement prices for consumer good or paying low to little tax.

Yet they complain about joblessness and how the education system and their neighborhood/towns are going to the balls.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#380

Post by softg »

davidgoudet wrote: post #362
softg wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> understand your point of view if you're from a first-world country and you never experienced the terror of having people interfering with the means of production. Do you mean a strike? A very common event in many first-world countries like the US or France ?

Not a strike, damaging machines and planting bombs.

I'm not aware of a violent non-state actor that exclusively or primarily attacks the means of production instead of military personnel and regular civilian targets. Is there any?
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