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A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

cambridgeblog.org

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Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#221

Post by nelox »

Justsignedup wrote: post #10

The worst part here is: He spent months researching 500 medical papers to even realize this was a problem. No way in hell will a single defense lawyer get someone to be able to research enough to figure this out. As stated, how many people are in jail or lost their kids due to something that didn't actually happen. And how many people don't know that a minor bump in the head for a baby could be life threatening, but…

Try that in a court which doesn’t recognise the reliability of evidence provided by an “expert” witness.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#222

Post by rossant »

singleshot_ wrote: post #153
Justsignedup wrote: post #10

The worst part here is: He spent months researching 500 medical papers to even realize this was a problem. No way in hell will a single defense lawyer get someone to be able to research enough to figure this out. As stated, how many people are in jail or lost their kids due to something that didn't actually happen. And how many people don't know that a minor bump in the head for a baby could be life threatening, but…

> No way in hell will a single defense lawyer get someone to be able to research enough to figure this out. Why would we have to? We can just hire M. Rossant.

I wish, unfortunately I'm not a criminal defense lawyer nor a medical doctor! And I don't intend to be one anytime soon. ;)

I think the most productive thing I can at least try to do is to raise awareness among lawyers, doctors, and all professionals involved. No one has the time to dig into it as much as I did, but perhaps I can organize and present our current knowledge as clearly as possible. The book is one little step in this direction.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#223

Post by stephen_g »

tivert wrote: post #174
stephen_g wrote: post #127

Amazing that bit about child welfare organisations fighting against the science, when clearly taking children away based on false accusations is clearly far worse for the child’s welfare, not to mention the parents’! It’s just incredible the injustice that can be done in the name of protecting children. I really do wonder if it’s cultural or some kind of innate psychological irrarionality that seems stronger in some…

> Amazing that bit about child welfare organisations fighting against the science, when clearly taking children away based on false accusations is clearly far worse for the child’s welfare, not to mention the parents’! This is just speculation, but I bet those groups (or their members) aren't always calmly and coolly trying to find the best policies protect the welfare of children. Instead they feel themselves on a k…

That is a point - and also, while I'm sure many are just misguided, and I generally don't want to assume malice when ignorance is a more likely cause, it is certainly interesting that some high-profile people on these 'heroic moral crusades' do then seem to get caught up in sexual misconduct scandals of their own surprisingly frequently...

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#224

Post by Muromec »

mlindner wrote: post #180
armada651 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a serious question? Yes, the French justice system is based on a presumption of innocence, just like any other functioning democratic nation. It is a basic human right under the UN charter after all.

You say that, but this doesn't seem like presumption of innocence. A country with a presumption of innocence doesn't take your child away from you without trial.

Pre-trial detention is a thing pretty much everywhere despite literally locking innocent people up before a trial.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#225

Post by rossant »

tivert wrote: post #174
stephen_g wrote: post #127

Amazing that bit about child welfare organisations fighting against the science, when clearly taking children away based on false accusations is clearly far worse for the child’s welfare, not to mention the parents’! It’s just incredible the injustice that can be done in the name of protecting children. I really do wonder if it’s cultural or some kind of innate psychological irrarionality that seems stronger in some…

> Amazing that bit about child welfare organisations fighting against the science, when clearly taking children away based on false accusations is clearly far worse for the child’s welfare, not to mention the parents’! This is just speculation, but I bet those groups (or their members) aren't always calmly and coolly trying to find the best policies protect the welfare of children. Instead they feel themselves on a k…

Exactly. I met many people like this. The notion of groupthink comes to mind: "Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions."

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#226

Post by raducu »

Muromec wrote: post #215

Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science.

It could be, but communication issues could also be at play, plus overeager doctors/social workers. In Romania they go at great lengths not to pull children out of family environments, in Denmark and other more developed countries it could be the opposite.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#227

Post by trenchgun »

itsmemattchung wrote: post #16

> As a precautionary measure, the hospital followed mandatory reporting statutes and my wife and I temporarily lost custody of David. Thanks to our incredibly effective defense lawyer, we were cleared of all charges within two months, during which we stayed at the hospital 24/7 with David until we sorted out the legal procedures. Holy shit. Parents bring baby to ER ... results reveal that baby was shaken (article lat…

>parents lose custody for 2 months. Horror story.

If you read the rest of the article, you will realize that this was the absolute happy path in that kind of situation. That's the real horror story: that the default path involves stuff like losing custody forever, incarceration, suicide, divorce etc.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#228

Post by Muromec »

woof wrote: post #220
Muromec wrote: post #215

Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science.

Seems like the bias is on your part… Which is ironic, given the articles content…. Or do you have _evidence_?

No, I don't have any bias, it's everybody else having biases. To be sure, I just checked how many times before I was biased (it's zero times), so I can't be now.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#229

Post by idoubtit »

rapatel0 wrote: post #181

This doesn’t surprise me. We have massive systemic issues in medical science and care delivery. - Medical science handles variation by simply assuming that large enough samples will average out variation. This loses a ton of information as the “average person” is a construct that almost certainly doesn’t exist. - news media on medical science glosses over all uncertainties in the name of clickbaity sensationalism. -…

Basically, you want to replace statistics ("large enough samples will average out variation") with AI. I'm afraid that's cargo cult instead of science.

AI can lie. It means a "truely personalized medicine" would sometimes poison its patients. See for instance Donald Knuth experiment with Chat GPT, starting with "Answer #3 is fouled up beautifully!" with some totally wrong AI answers https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/chatGPT20.txt

Of course medical science could make a better use of statistics, get help from AI, and discern more profiles (e.g. one US adult out of two is obese, and it's often unclear how to adjust medication to person mass). But that's a long process, with no obvious path, and much distinct from the magic "AI will solve it all".

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#230

Post by rossant »

duxup wrote: post #130
stephen_g wrote: post #127

Amazing that bit about child welfare organisations fighting against the science, when clearly taking children away based on false accusations is clearly far worse for the child’s welfare, not to mention the parents’! It’s just incredible the injustice that can be done in the name of protecting children. I really do wonder if it’s cultural or some kind of innate psychological irrarionality that seems stronger in some…

My theory is that emotionally charged issues seem like a haven for people not thinking clearly and cover for hand waving or opposing any thoughtful analysis. I think there are people drawn to the absolutes. I can maybe see how it can be comforting to have a black and white issue to try to solve / help. A good side to be a part of in a world that to some seems very bad or confusing. Some old friends of mine are very m…

I agree. This is clearly visible in trials where emotion plays a big part. An innocent childminder being charged with murder can't really compete with the extraordinarily charged testimony of grieving, devastated and sincere parents who have been made to believe in the strongest way possible that she killed their baby.
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