Please do not take down the Sality botnet • Hacker News Board

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#101

Post by icebraining » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 3:53 PM UTC

daemon13 wrote: post #72

icebraining wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it is a prejudice and should be avoided, but it's not completely groundless: According to industry analyses, Russia accounts for about 35 percent of global cybercrime revenue, or between $2.5 and $3.7 billion. That’s wildly out of proportion with the country’s share of the global information technology market (which is around 1 percent). http://themoscownews.com/siloviks_scoundrels/20111121/189221... It'…

thank you :-) Just to point to a couple of facts:- 1. From the same article: "Why does every hacking and cyberscam story – real or fictional – seem to have a Russia connection? In part, it is prejudice and laziness. The stereotype of the Russian hacker has become such a common media trope that it gets recycled again and again. It also offers a handy update for those looking for new ways to perpetuate the ‘Russian thr…

>"Skilled but under-emplored programmer in Russia" is like Bigfoot [also known as sasquatch] - everyone heard about him/her, but noone saw. It is a legend...

Well, Group-IB (a Russian computer security company) seems to disagree:

    In Russia the situation is additionally worsen by a great amount of 
    technical universities graduates and by unstable home economy
    situation as the result of which the mentioned specialists cannot
    find highly paid legal income.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Wgm5sdanNDgJ:...

I don't know where they get the data from, though.

But of course there are russians, americans, germans, brits, and other nations, which do quite some harm. I just do not think there is a legitimate way to define the winner.

Sure, it's still a prejudice, I was just pointing out it's not completely irrational.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#102

Post by Dove » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 4:06 PM UTC

I am reminded of the "wine blocks" sold (legally!) during the prohibition, which came with the following warning:

After dissolving the brick in a gallon of water, do not place the liquid in a jug away in the cupboard for twenty days, because then it would turn into wine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_State...

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#103

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 4:17 PM UTC

daemon13 wrote: post #60

s_henry_paulson wrote: post #50

The guy takes all the time to put this together, write this up, and is perfectly ok with the outcome, but instead of going to a coffee shop and doing this himself, he spends a lengthy amount of time writing up instructions and giving the criminals a chance to fix their injection problems before someone can take down the botnet. Baffling. Not only that, but this guy seems to know what he's doing and instead of someone…

I apologize in advance for the tone, but as a Russian I have a question - are you racist? Since Sergey Brin and Mila Yovovich are "russians", do you imply that Google and Hollywood are part of this botnet? The most famous hacker is Kevin Mitnick [american] and most recent hackers charged/arrested by FBI are also american citizens. Why don't you change "russians" to "americans"? Or may be "new_zealanders" [Kim dot com…

To me it is clear that he meant Russian hackers (as it would have been if it had say Chinese) and I doubt anybody else is confused over this. Given that, writing hackers was redundant and should be dropped.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#104

Post by furyofantares » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 4:32 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #98

furyofantares wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "due to" racism, it is racism. Prejudice based on ethnicity or nation of origin is racism.

No. "Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination". If it's based on the current social or economical situation of Russia, it's prejudice, but not racism. Remember that Russians are "citizens of Russia", not a particular ethnic group.

Lots of racism emerges partially as a result of some statistical basis in current social or economic situations that for whatever reason correlate to an ethnic group or nation of origin. (And racism is not solely about ethnic groups, it's also about nations of origin -- ethnic groups are just one of the classifications of humans that are considered "race", geographic ancestry is another.)

It's not racism to recognize these statistical facts. Racism is when we have prejudice based on them. It's when we slander an entire ethnic group or nation of origin based on the actions of a few of them. This is not justified just because there is more cybercrime in Russia than elsewhere: there is cybercrime everywhere, and the vast majority of Russians are not cybercriminals.

It's racism to say we "run the risk of russians" when we mean we run the risk of malevolant cybercriminals. The two terms are not interchangeable. We don't say you "run the risk of blacks" when we mean you might get mugged in downtown LA even if we believe that more muggings in downtown LA come from blacks than other ethnic groups, nor do we say you "run the risk of whites" when we mean you might get killed by a serial killer as you're walking to your car in an empty garage at night, even if we think perpetrators of such crimes are more likely white than anything else.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#105

Post by icebraining » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 4:59 PM UTC

furyofantares wrote: post #104

icebraining wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. "Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination". If it's based on the current social or economical situation of Russia, it's prejudice, but not racism. Remember that Russians are "citizens of Russia", not a particular ethnic group.

Lots of racism emerges partially as a result of some statistical basis in current social or economic situations that for whatever reason correlate to an ethnic group or nation of origin. (And racism is not solely about ethnic groups, it's also about nations of origin -- ethnic groups are just one of the classifications of humans that are considered "race", geographic ancestry is another.) It's not racism to recognize…

I think it depends on what one attributes the statistical fact to; it's only racism if we consider it inherent to the group. If we consider that to be a result of a particular condition that happens to be affect certain group at this point in time, and that any other group would have the same problem if subject to the same condition, I don't see how is that racism.

I think your examples are clear prejudice (and no, I wouldn't say them), but they may or may not be racism.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#106

Post by inchcombec » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:08 PM UTC

ticks wrote: post #57

s_henry_paulson wrote: post #50

The guy takes all the time to put this together, write this up, and is perfectly ok with the outcome, but instead of going to a coffee shop and doing this himself, he spends a lengthy amount of time writing up instructions and giving the criminals a chance to fix their injection problems before someone can take down the botnet. Baffling. Not only that, but this guy seems to know what he's doing and instead of someone…

I imagine if you do it from a coffee shop or similar public place, then there is a good chance of being caught on CCTV. Whether the authorities will go after someone to that degree, given what they have potentially done, is another matter.

Exactly. It seems to be a point that a lot of people forget. A lot of people don't fully trust the Internet security tools, such as TOR, for anonymity. So, they try to add a layer of what is essentially physical security by using an Internet connection that doesn't track back to them. However, a lot of times people don't fully consider that at that point you must now not only secure your Internet security but physical security as well. Ie. Not be seen.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea to want to add an extra layer of security/anonymity, but it actually has to be done right. If investigators trace it back to the coffee shop and see on the CCTV that you're the only one sitting there using a laptop for the entire time the attack took place you're screwed.

Interestingly enough, all the ways to actually add that layer of physical security are potentially illegal. (depending on local laws) Obviously, the laws can vary a lot, but in a lot of places the methods a person would use to hide themselves are considered unlawful access.

Take the coffee shop for example, instead of entering the coffee shop you sit outside it. If it doesn't have cameras outside, the businesses around it very well might have one that can see you, and then there are also the people that see you. (witnesses) Okay then, long range antenna, right? Wrong, still illegal in some places. Even though it is an unsecured wifi that is meant for people to connect to it, it is meant for customers. That means that you either have to go in and buy a coffee (which shows on camera that you were in the area) or to have previously asked permission to use it which means that someone in the coffee shop must know who you are to have given you permission. This caveat actually applies to the parking lot situation too and people really have been charged before for accessing a coffee shop's wifi from the parking lot without actually going in so this isn't just a thought exercise.

Generally, if you're doing something online illegal enough to be investigated that fully, illegally accessing some coffee shop's connection is the least of your problems. There are legitimate reasons to want total anonymity though, such as whistle-blowers or individuals living in certain countries. If you're going to try for that level of anonymity it is important to know the local laws and make sure that whatever you're trying to be anonymous about is worth potentially breaking that law if it exists.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#107

Post by scott_s » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 5:48 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #100

scott_s wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a colleague who was from the Ukraine, and I once referred to him as Ukrainian, and he stiffly responded, "I am Russian ." From that, I assumed that some people consider it an ethnic group independent of the nation.

A lot of people from Eastern Europe are very sensitive about that sort of thing; Russia's domination of the USSR and various brutalities are still fresh in memory, and besides, referring to any Eastern European as a Russian is akin to calling someone from Guatemala as a Mexican. Some people are more sensitive about it than others. (I was born in Russia, and don't particularly care, but I'm aware of other people's sen…

Which brings up another quirk of humanity, which is we tend to hate the ethnic group that is the most similar to our own. Simply, you hate your neighbor, you don't hate someone on the other side of the world you've never interacted with.

There certainly are many instances of people hating ethnicities very disimilar form them, but that happens after people from different parts of the world migrate close to each other.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#108

Post by pavel_lishin » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 6:05 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #107

pavel_lishin wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people from Eastern Europe are very sensitive about that sort of thing; Russia's domination of the USSR and various brutalities are still fresh in memory, and besides, referring to any Eastern European as a Russian is akin to calling someone from Guatemala as a Mexican. Some people are more sensitive about it than others. (I was born in Russia, and don't particularly care, but I'm aware of other people's sen…

Which brings up another quirk of humanity, which is we tend to hate the ethnic group that is the most similar to our own. Simply, you hate your neighbor, you don't hate someone on the other side of the world you've never interacted with. There certainly are many instances of people hating ethnicities very disimilar form them, but that happens after people from different parts of the world migrate close to each other.

I think the generalized term for that is "the narcissism of small differences".

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#109

Post by zheng » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 6:09 PM UTC

JackC wrote: post #97

etrain wrote: post #11

I would love to hear a lawyers opinion on whether the OP has any legal case whatsoever if his "not suggestions" are ever used, his identity is identified, and someone decides they want to throw the book at him. Basically, if some DA decides this is modern day vigalanteism, a step removed - could the OP ever defend himself in court?

IAAL. You know how lawyers always write "I am not your lawyer. This is not legal advice. Consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction."? That's for several good reasons, partly that we like being special, but also because no one could really answer this without doing legal research in the jurisdiction where the OP was charged. The answer will vary not only from country to country but state to state, and could depend on all…

...Law is basically a big virtual machine that runs on metaphors and rhetoric, kind of like the IE6 html engine.

Best quote I've read all year. Also makes a ton of sense when put like that, so thanks.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#110

Post by ricardobeat » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 6:37 PM UTC

rplnt wrote: post #76

ricardobeat wrote: post #15

So why can't those nice guys from the FBI go and do it already? It's so easy to replace sites when piracy is involved...

They simply can't. This is very different from closing down some "piracy" sites. In this case they need to mess with data on your computer. Do you want FBI to have a legal way to read, modify or destroy data on your computer? Even if you want (which I don't believe), there is no way that would work on international scale. I remember a case from some years back when some group (some AV group or something like that) to…

Is just changing the source code for the next update on the servers a privacy violation? Every zombie machine will download it by itself.